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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

Feel free to post how and why you voted, but please DO NOT ENGAGE OTHERS IN DISCUSSIONS/ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULES SAY. Please create a separate thread if you feel the urge to have this kind of discussion.



The rules for 'Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight' say (rulebook, pg 58): "Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models. If the target happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing model in a normal unit."


The rules for 'Cover Saves' say (rulebook, pg 21): "What Counts as Cover? Cover is basically anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots. For example, a soft obstacle (like a hedge) that would hide soldiers behind it, but would not even slow down enemy shots, confers a 5+ save, purpose-built fortifications confer a 3+ save, most other things confer a 4+ cover save. More detail can be found in the Cover chart below [which lists Units (friends and enemies) as granting a 4+ cover save]."

and:

"When are models in Cover? When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover."

and:

"Intervening Models: If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. This does not mean that intervening models literally stop the shots, but rather that they obscure the sight of the firers or otherwise spoil their aim."

and:

"Exceptions: In order to keep the game flowing at a faster pace, we have made a few exceptions to the cover rules given on the previous page, namely: Own unit: In the same way as they can trace line of sight through members of the their own squad, models can always shoot, and be shot at, through members of their own unit without conferring or receiving a cover save."





QUESTION: If a vehicle's weapon is firing at a unit, but less than half of the models in the target unit are within the weapon's 'arc of sight' do you play that the unit gets a cover save simply because more than half of its models are out of the 'arc of sight'?


Example:

The Leman Russ is only able to fire its Right Heavy Bolter Sponson at the Grots (the rest of its weapons have been destroyed). However, less than half the models in the target unit are within its 'arc of sight' does this mean the unit gets a 4+ cover save for being obscured by the vehicle itself?



OPTION A. I play that an enemy unit cannot get cover for hiding behind the firing vehicle itself and therefore in the example above the Grots would not get a cover save for being obscured by the Leman Russ.


OPTION B. I play that since the weapon can only see less than half the models in the target unit that in the example above the Grots would indeed gain the 4+ cover save for being obscured by the Leman Russ.


OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.






Automatically Appended Next Post:


For anyone who votes B, please answer this follow-up question:


If the majority of the Grots were still out of the weapons 'arc of sight', but this time they were simply 'behind' the right sponson (instead of on the other side of the tank), would this change your vote?

If not, what cover save would the Grots be getting in this case (and why) as they wouldn't technically be obscured by anything, they would just be out of the 'arc of sight'?

I always play B. You cannot see more than half of the unit, therefore the unit gains a cover save.

I just treat the gun as a single firing model. It being attached to a vehicle should not alter whether the unit gains cover.

It's B for me. While models in a unit don't block LOS, GW have clarified in the Space Marine FAQ talking about Razorbacks' weapons blocking each other that vehicles can block their own LOS.

For the follow-up question, so long as the majority of the unit is in the weapon's fire arc, they're in sight. Otherwise, any unit would always be in cover from vehicle weapons, as the weapon can only physically point at a single model at a time unless they're all lined up behind each other... and you would run into the same problem with infantry, since they also are supposed to be pointed at their target.

insaniak wrote:
For the follow-up question, so long as the majority of the unit is in the weapon's fire arc, they're in sight. Otherwise, any unit would always be in cover from vehicle weapons, as the weapon can only physically point at a single model at a time unless they're all lined up behind each other... and you would run into the same problem with infantry, since they also are supposed to be pointed at their target.

No, I think you're misunderstanding my follow-up question.

I'm saying that the majority of the unit it still not in the vehicle's arc of fire, but they're not obscured by the vehicle at all either...in this case they're just behind the right sponson...so not obscured by anything at all, but not in the weapon's arc of fire either.

I couldn't find anything in the rules that seemed to say units that are out of a vehicle's arc of fire gain a cover save, and in the follow-up question scenario, the target unit would absolutely not be obscured by literally anything at all. So would you still give them a 4+ cover save in that case, and if so, by what basis?

Surely this is covered by the usual "models entirely out of line of sight count towards those models in cover"?

The firing model cannot trace clear LOS to >50% of models in the unit, therefore the unit gains a cover save. It doesnt mmatter *why* the fring model is unable to trace LOS.

yakface wrote:No, I think you're misunderstanding my follow-up question.

I'm saying that the majority of the unit it still not in the vehicle's arc of fire, but they're not obscured by the vehicle at all either...in this case they're just behind the right sponson...so not obscured by anything at all, but not in the weapon's arc of fire either.

Ah, my bad. Fighting off a migraine, and not at my most observant right now. Missed that it was a Russ, rather than a vehicle with full side movement on the sponsons...

In which case, they're out of LOS, so count towards models obscured. Nothing to do with the vehicle rules specifically, just a side effect of the cover rules. Models that are out of sight count as in cover.

B - out of LOS.

edit: I'd go with 4+ for it, same as being obscured by another unit. Seems like a nice and even number.

I voted B, couldn't imagine playing it another way. Not sure about the exact rules wording to back it up though =\

I voted B.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Surely this is covered by the usual "models entirely out of line of sight count towards those models in cover"?

The firing model cannot trace clear LOS to >50% of models in the unit, therefore the unit gains a cover save. It doesnt mmatter *why* the fring model is unable to trace LOS.

I believe you're referring to the rules for 'units partially in cover' (on page 22) which says:

"Models that are completely out of sight are considered to be in cover for [determining whether a unit is in cover or not]."


So assuming that a vehicle's 'arc of fire' is the same thing as 'line of sight' (let's assume it is here), again, what cover save would be given to the unit and why? There is no cover save listed for a unit simply being out of line of sight because in all other cases the unit is actually obscured by something. In this case, the unit would literally be obscured by nothing and therefore the question of what cover save (if any) they would deserve?




Automatically Appended Next Post:


Also, just to double check with everyone voting B:


If the vehicle in the example was firing all 3 Heavy Bolters, only one of them (the left sponson) is able to see the majority of the models in the target unit and therefore you would play that the unit gets cover saves from all 3 Heavy Bolters, correct?

At first I thought "easy, the cover save for intervening models is 4+." But here the leman rus is not intervening in it's own LOS because the arc of fire does not pass through the leman rus.

However, a 4+ might still be the best representation of how having less than 50% of the unit in the arc of fire will reduce casualties

Its come up before - youre not technically obscured by anything; the obscuring factor is the LOS of the model firing. You could argue therefore it is a 4+, as the LOS is obscured by an intervening model...

You grant cover saves on a unit by unit basis; if only one firing model (==HB sponson) has clear LOS then all shooting gives cover, same as for a unit firing 3 heavybolters - the rules tell you to treat each weapon on a vehicle individually for determining if the vehicle as a whole gives cover when shooting.

Sponson weapons are not allowed to shoot at targets which are out of their arc of fire.

Consequently, if the Grots were behind the sponson it would be meaningless whether they get a cover save or not, since the sponson weapon cannot shoot at them.

I'm locking this and restarting a new one as I think I failed to get my point across properly and I don't want to taint the answers one way or another with more questions on my part.

So I'll repost with better pictures and try this again...sorry!