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Condensing the game back down to just 3 books is a tempting proposition.

Although I still have some "Book of..." books in shrink wrap..

As long as it's not streamlined in the wrong places (campaign progression, list building freedom...)

Looks like 4 distinct bodies on the Escher, so two sprues with a minimum of 2 different builds for each. Will be interesting to see if there’s any extra bits from those shown and if the new bodies work with any of the existing bits from the other kits (without adjustments)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Condensing the game back down to just 3 books is a tempting proposition.

Although I still have some "Book of..." books in shrink wrap..

As long as it's not streamlined in the wrong places (campaign progression, list building freedom...)

This. Although my books have made it out of the shrink wrap!

One of things keeping me away from Necromunda was all the books. How viable do we think it is to enter the game with rules, one of the two army books, and a gang box? And not having to keep on the paper treadmill to keep up and keep playing?

 Nevelon wrote:
One of things keeping me away from Necromunda was all the books. How viable do we think it is to enter the game with rules, one of the two army books, and a gang box? And not having to keep on the paper treadmill to keep up and keep playing?

Considering GW goes with the journal approach in Old World and Horus Heresy, army sized games which presumably make them a lot more money through miniatures than a skirmish game, I can't see a Necromunda reset to be anything more than a temporary reprieve.

Best case scenario, the core, campaign and gang rules here are complete as far as that goes and any further books increase the breadth of options across the game rather than expanding on the things you already have, so that you could theoretically keep going with just the rule book and a Book Of.

Presumably the kind of blank slate here still makes it the best time to get introduced to the game.

Just my opinion of course, mostly based on GW's unceasing love of selling paper this past decade across its game systems.

 Geifer wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
One of things keeping me away from Necromunda was all the books. How viable do we think it is to enter the game with rules, one of the two army books, and a gang box? And not having to keep on the paper treadmill to keep up and keep playing?

Considering GW goes with the journal approach in Old World and Horus Heresy, army sized games which presumably make them a lot more money through miniatures than a skirmish game, I can't see a Necromunda reset to be anything more than a temporary reprieve.

Best case scenario, the core, campaign and gang rules here are complete as far as that goes and any further books increase the breadth of options across the game rather than expanding on the things you already have, so that you could theoretically keep going with just the rule book and a Book Of.

Presumably the kind of blank slate here still makes it the best time to get introduced to the game.

Just my opinion of course, mostly based on GW's unceasing love of selling paper this past decade across its game systems.

This does look like a really good on ramp. I’m just worried about the cost of staying on the road. Because sunk cost fallacy is a thing, and I’m a sucker for it. At the rate I paint, it’s going to be months, if not over a year before I’m ready for the table. And what will I need to play at that point? And the way GW rolls, it will be 3 more books and a FOMO box set I missed. So I’m a bit gunshy about letting a new system get its hooks into me. I like the concept, but the practically of Necromunda worries me.

That “Skirmish” branding is now worrying me. Streamlined rules, old book obsolete, campaign cards—make me worry that we are getting something much less than Necromunda and much more like Kill Team. Hope I’m wrong, but…

After Xmass seems we’ll be back at the old Gang War state. Maybe new House books or more event/new model books.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
That “Skirmish” branding is now worrying me. Streamlined rules, old book obsolete, campaign cards—make me worry that we are getting something much less than Necromunda and much more like Kill Team. Hope I’m wrong, but…

After Xmass seems we’ll be back at the old Gang War state. Maybe new House books or more event/new model books.

I took it a different way and am wondering if they’re starting up “Skirmish” as a brand to release smaller, non-core games?


Gorka Morka anyone?

Could be that Skirmish will absorb Necromunda, Warcry, and Underworlds like how Horus Heresy includes Legiones Imperialis

 Jadenim wrote:

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
That “Skirmish” branding is now worrying me. Streamlined rules, old book obsolete, campaign cards—make me worry that we are getting something much less than Necromunda and much more like Kill Team. Hope I’m wrong, but…

After Xmass seems we’ll be back at the old Gang War state. Maybe new House books or more event/new model books.

I took it a different way and am wondering if they’re starting up “Skirmish” as a brand to release smaller, non-core games?


Gorka Morka anyone?

That would be cool, even better if they are cross-compatible. Also 40K scale Inquisitor!

Yeah... Three book buy in is VERY tempting.

Along with some (assuming) tighter rules.

 schoon wrote:
Yeah... Three book buy in is VERY tempting.

Along with some (assuming) tighter rules.

The previous re-do of the books started out thus, with the core book and a gang book. But then that spiralled out of control as House books invalidated that initial gang book in short order. These may well be Index-style get-you-by books while GW get around to another run of Codex-style expansions. We'll have to see what their intended release schedule is to be.

Anybody looking at this and expecting a lack of rules bloat going forwards has extremely poor pattern recognition.

Was gonna say, those are obviously index books, GW is too addicted to the disposable rules supplement money to stop doing them entirely even for Necromunda.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment and all...

The question is how the math works out. I have little problem dropping money on GW plastic. But begrudge the rules that go out of date so fast. That fact has kept me out of most of the specialist games. I’m unwilling to get on the rules update train for another system. I’m far more forgiving of a one-and-done buy in then a subscription.

So how many people like me are out there? How many more minis would they sell? vs. how much money can they soak off of players with the rules churn?

And the world we live in now is not the same as old. Is that model still the best? We have more digital apps and live updates. People begrudge buying books that are obsolete before the shrink wrap comes off. But on the flip side, you also have 3D printing and 3rd parties. We don’t have all the numbers.

Every time they come out with a new edition is a chance they change the model.

I wonder with the skirmish branding they are moving to a more point based matched play style game, rather then a campaign grow your gang set up?

I wouldn't mind buying more books if the new edition was much better - better playing or more options or whatever. The trouble is, wargames editions these days are often the same thing as last time with a bit of a tinker round the edges at best, and at worst they're actually big downgrades in fidelity or gameplay so being asked to also rebuy all your books in that context feels doubly crap.


I like the Frostgrave approach where the 2nd edition tidied things up a bit AND included a whole section dedicated to explaining that all the existing expansion books remained valid, with instructions on how to amend them for compatibility where necessary. Necromunda should be more like that.

I’m interested in the new edition. If it’s not to my taste? I’ll do what Necromundans have always done - whatever I bloody well please, rules wise.

Previous editions, home brew, bit from here, bit from there. Doesn’t matter. It’s my campaign, and as long as my players know the rules being used? All is good.

Mmhmm, "if you don't like it just don't play it".

No.

If I don’t like the new rules? I’ll use the other rules I already have.

I'm really struggling to explain why I don't like that take without coming off really rude because to me, it sounds just the same as "If you don't like it just don't play it, don't complain", just with a "positive" spin. It's dismissive.

It’s a simple statement of fact. I’ve all the books, all the terrain and all the models. All I need do is the herding cats part of rounding up some players.

Doesn’t matter what the current edition might be. I may prefer it, in which I can use my existing books to provide ideas and scenarios I can adapt.

A solid dose of DIY is a huge part of the appeal of Necromunda and Mordheim, and has been since it first came out.

We all know that a significant number of players will see every new version of a ruleset as a de facto replacement for the old one. If your local group don't do that then that's great, but we are going to have a situation where vast swathes of material in the huge number of Necro supplements doesn't make the transition to Skirmish and is then effectively lost to certain groups

Same thing happened with Necro '95, happened with Underhive, is happening with Underhive Wars, will happen at some point with Skirmish. "just play the old edition" is just not viable for some groups (not to mention that a new edition means the old books will go OOP, so it will not be legally and/or financially feasible for new players to access the old rules).

It's OK to acknowledge that some groups are not as flexible with edition changes and sympathise with people in that situation. Is it GWs fault? No, new editions are a fact of life, as is the constant churn of new updates. Are they completely oblivious about the impact new editions have on already niche games? After 30 years I'd bloody hope not.

Too many games with too many rules revamps every few years. I think sometimes you just want to chill in your hobby, but the way it's going is churn of rules, minis editions etc faster than you have time to sit and just relax.
Those condensed boxes with big gangs better not replace the smaller individual gang boxes.

It perhaps does need to be digested that N17 has been, for an iteration of a successful and continuously supported hobby game, very long-lived by any standard. I admit I didn’t think they were going to pull the lever on a new edition, but that they’re doing it isn’t a malign aspect of the modern industry which didn’t happen in the good old days. Rogue Trader lasted six years and 40k 2nd edition five. At nine, N17 is getting to the level of AD&D second edition (11 years) and in that case the parent company was in serious financial trouble towards the end which may have pre-empted thoughts of a new version. Plenty of seminal RPGs have had gaps between editions much shorter than this. While I find current 40k’s edition cycle a reason not to get involved in that game, that’s mostly because it’s just so short. (I accept that the 2023 Necromunda rulebook muddies the waters a bit, but it was a bit of a sticking plaster in retrospect.) It’s the nature of a game of this sort that eventually they become so top-heavy that it becomes a barrier to entry for new players. You can see this in the positive response from some commentators right now. I’m not sure anyone has found a better way to solve the problem than revising the base game; it’s the industry standard approach. Obviously, it’s also a way to sell more stuff to existing players; it does not have to be one or the other.

Which is not to say that we should not be worried about what GW are going to do with the new edition, but the other thing that inevitably happens at these times is that people overreact. (I remember the furore around 6th edition MTG, and good grief did that seem silly in retrospect.) We really don’t know much about what is going to change. We do know at least that the existing plastic footslogger kits for the House gangs will stick around including the weapon upgrade sets, which does suggest this isn’t just going to be a clone of Kill Team with matched play and everything. (Why would they do that? They already sell Kill Team.) We know there will be a campaign. We know at least one of the more obscure gangs (Ogryns) is staying. The new models are described as having “specialised wargear” and do seem to be the gang specialists release that lots of people very much wanted to see a couple of weeks ago. We know the Ash Wastes setting and vehicles are staying.

Maybe it will suck and represent the dramatic shift that some people are worried about, but we really are just reading tea leaves at this point. I don’t see name change as indicating more than a diktat that all products except LOTR must be called “Warhammer”. I don’t see the sparsity of the new terrain as indicating anything more than a desire to keep the price of the starter set down. The main worry for me is the Trading Post because if they really are doing no models no rules – and 3d printing is a clear incentive to go that way - then it cannot survive, but we still have no information as yet.

I definitely sympathise with those annoyed with the additional financial outlay, of course, but that is kind of the nature of the beast in a hobby like this. If you want content that doesn’t go obsolete then you are probably better off with boardgames.

I think the fact it's been around for 9 years makes it worse - the book collections are especially massive, AND because it's been so long it wasn't crazy to hope it was somewhat immune to the edition treadmill.

There are plenty of games that have never done new editions just to sell books.

twoseventwo wrote:
Which is not to say that we should not be worried about what GW are going to do with the new edition, but the other thing that inevitably happens at these times is that people overreact. (I remember the furore around 6th edition MTG, and good grief did that seem silly in retrospect.) We really don’t know much about what is going to change. We do know at least that the existing plastic footslogger kits for the House gangs will stick around including the weapon upgrade sets, which does suggest this isn’t just going to be a clone of Kill Team with matched play and everything. (Why would they do that? They already sell Kill Team.) We know there will be a campaign. We know at least one of the more obscure gangs (Ogryns) is staying. The new models are described as having “specialised wargear” and do seem to be the gang specialists release that lots of people very much wanted to see a couple of weeks ago. We know the Ash Wastes setting and vehicles are staying.

We actually know very little about what is happening, which is why we are worrying. We have a rebranding which could be a realignment since Necromunda and Kill Team are listed under the 40K tag on the Warhammer website. It could also foretell that the game is no longer campaign focussed in the way we have come to expect. (I actually wouldn't mind a bit more word count on skirmish play, but not at the expense of traditional campaign play.). Look they bundled all the "old" boxes together, so they are n't going away?!? We don't know why they are doing that and for many of us we don't need them bundled together, wee need them separate because we need certain boxes for certain things. The new Goliaths and Escher do look a lots like the Van Saar specialists, which is good and bad. Good because new models is always good, bad because they could hypothetically replace the old base gangs. (I honestly thought they were going to replace the old gangs with new base gangs and possibly 28mm bases, so yay me?!?)

It's possible the two Gangs of books can indeed replace all of the existing books, it's not a page count problem--especially if you cut down on lore. It's how deep are they going to go? Ogryns are an actual Necromunda branded plastic kit, so they better be supported. But what of Venators that a lot of people use to model with their imagination? It's really a short gang entry and shouldn't be a problem unless GW decides to not put it in the book. Same with Genestealer and Chaos Cults, not to mention infected House gangs of those same cult. Will GW support all their branded boxes, pretty sure they will, not the weird neat thing about Necromunda is all the things in resin and kit bashed that it also supports.

And speaking of resin, a new edition would be a great time to get rid of things not plastic, including rules for Guilds, alliances et al. No need to keep producing a very long list, just rules for plastic minis--or the minis they intend to replace in plastic (pets, I'm looking at you). To be honest as a business I'd use a new edition to sweep away a costly, hard to produce and low selling tail. Maybe GW likes the sales of the resin enough to keep it, but the winds are blowing in a plastic direction, so...

The reason there is a lot of apprehension about a new streamlined skirmish Necromunda is because a lot of what people have invested in is not about GW box sets, which will probably be supported in their intended way. People are worried that their Genestealer infected Van Saar gang backed by the Psi-Syndicate has no place in the Nucromunda. People are worried that their swaths of custom made Venator gangs have no current rules and exist only for a shelf. It doesn't even matter if the game is better and even more enjoyable than what it replaces. It matters that it replaces something--something that can't ever be.

In the mean time I'll be trying to pick up all the books I'm missing from the current game and I'll decide if I want to pick up the new game when it comes out.

It would help a lot if GW would get ahead of this a bit and start articulating what sort the rules changes are, and exactly what will and will not be supported in the new edition and launch.

You'd still get some complaining - but you brought that on yourselves SGS with heavily misleading posts about HH 3.0 - but it's only going to get worse without a bit of clarity.

What scares me besides the description of the new rulebook of streamlined and more balanced games; is the pictures of the new "units" box sets. Rarely has GW released a box set with extra optional models in a set. A box is what you would normally field in a game, it's now doubled to 15 to 20, not your regular 8-10. So they could be moving to a skirmish smaller units, 3 units of five figures, from what is pictured. More an small battle game than a gang fight of a few models.

 The Phazer wrote:
It would help a lot if GW would get ahead of this a bit and start articulating what sort the rules changes are, and exactly what will and will not be supported in the new edition and launch.

You'd still get some complaining - but you brought that on yourselves SGS with heavily misleading posts about HH 3.0 - but it's only going to get worse without a bit of clarity.

Of course it would, but that's not the way they work. And even if they did your point of HH3 still stands.

Oh, they hid something in plain sight. So they aren't done with new Goliaths, although it could be a named character.

That is Chest Buffwell, Goliath Accountant.