Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm thinking about doing a blood angels tank force built around my nicely painted Landraider Crusader. I'd go for any vehicle themed list that includes it and at least one razorback. Here's my idea so far...

Librarian with Sword and Shield powers 100

5 assault terminators with 3 LC and 2 with TH/SS 210

Sanguinary priest, to join termis 50

Landraider Crusader to transport termis (multimelta and stormbolter) 270

3x 5 man assault squads with meltagun and las/plas razorback 495

2x Baal Predators with HB sponsons 290

Landspeeder with multimelta 60

2x Predators with lascannon sponsons 270

Total 1745

Not bad. I'd dump the Speeder and the Baal sponsons to take a third Baal or third Predator. For the latter, you'd have to take the Stormbolter off the LRC, which shouldn't be a problem.

If the Libby is going in the Land Raider, which is a great idea as it makes Shield cover more ground, give him Unleash Rage instead of Sword. It'll make the Termies a lot better.

Noted about unleash rage, but I worry that I'm going to have trouble standing up to hordes if I skimp on the guns. How about some riflemen dreads? Could they work?

I suppose they're worse than auto/las predators on the whole

DoomMouse wrote:Noted about unleash rage, but I worry that I'm going to have trouble standing up to hordes if I skimp on the guns. How about some riflemen dreads? Could they work?

Take 3 naked flamestorm baals instead of the 2 w/ hb sponsons and the landspeeder?

WanderingFox wrote:

DoomMouse wrote:Noted about unleash rage, but I worry that I'm going to have trouble standing up to hordes if I skimp on the guns. How about some riflemen dreads? Could they work?

Take 3 naked flamestorm baals instead of the 2 w/ hb sponsons and the landspeeder?

I would not do this. When you finally get to use the Flamestorm Cannon you'll be so close that the next turn you will be assaulted by the squad you just flamed. Usually its not an even trade or even a favorable trade to do that. Assault Cannon Baal Predator is amazing especially when the Assault Cannon is amazing at hordes and at vehicle hunting as well.

That is why they have absolutely no upgrades.

They are also fast scouts. They almost assure you getting that first shot off either turn 1 or turn 2 and using them for their intended purpose of suiciding into horde units that s6 ap3 template will remove every single model under it without so much as an armor save in most cases.

The ac/hb baal is amazing yes, but it's far better at hunting normal infantry and light vehicles than it is with dealing with hordes. The op's fear was against horde units, and given he has no template weapons in the list at all I'd be inclined to agree with him.

Naked flamestorm baals is actually one of the two most competitive ways to field them (the other obviously being assault cannon w/ hb sponsons).

If he had any other templates in the army, I would not have suggested it.

It was simply the easiest way to fix the problem (being that dropping the the hb sponsons and the land speeder is just enough for a third naked baal).

The other option is to get some real anti horde someplace else, which would mean the inclusion of templates (frag/heavy flamer dreadnoughts, devastator squads, etc.)

I could possibly trade the LRC for a LRR to help by adding flame templates. (Although I would have to paint up another one :( )

If I dropped a razorback to dual heavy bolters, I'd have enough points for a autocannon/heavy bolter pred instead of the landspeeder, which might be marginally more useful.

So you are saying that having 230 points worth of suicide units is worthwhile? That's not a good trade at all considering hordes only pay 5 points per model. Its not an even trade. Its not even favorable for you. Assault Cannon Baal Predator is always better. If you want a suicide unit with a flamer the Land Speeder is a much better option because its cheaper. Doom Mouse brings up a good point. He could just take a Land Raider Redeemer.

If you're worried about hordes switch the Predators to Vindicators, you have lascannons on the Razorbacks anyway. You also thought about flamestorm Baals too for hordes?

Red Comet wrote:So you are saying that having 230 points worth of suicide units is worthwhile? That's not a good trade at all considering hordes only pay 5 points per model. Its not an even trade. Its not even favorable for you. Assault Cannon Baal Predator is always better. If you want a suicide unit with a flamer the Land Speeder is a much better option because its cheaper. Doom Mouse brings up a good point. He could just take a Land Raider Redeemer.

No I was suggesting them as a minimal work change that would fix the glaring lack of anti-horde.

Did you even read what I wrote? Specifically the last 3 lines.

Generally, I don't try and change someone's entire list around unless I have to when I'm offering advice in this forum. If I were to play a mech list it would be all ls/tlplas razorbacks ac/hb baals and vindicators. In fact, that is exactly what my 1500 pt mech list looks like.

WanderingFox wrote:

Red Comet wrote:So you are saying that having 230 points worth of suicide units is worthwhile? That's not a good trade at all considering hordes only pay 5 points per model. Its not an even trade. Its not even favorable for you. Assault Cannon Baal Predator is always better. If you want a suicide unit with a flamer the Land Speeder is a much better option because its cheaper. Doom Mouse brings up a good point. He could just take a Land Raider Redeemer.

No I was suggesting them as a minimal work change that would fix the glaring lack of anti-horde.

Did you even read what I wrote? Specifically the last 3 lines.

Generally, I don't try and change someone's entire list around unless I have to when I'm offering advice in this forum. If I were to play a mech list it would be all ls/tlplas razorbacks ac/hb baals and vindicators. In fact, that is exactly what my 1500 pt mech list looks like.

Yes I did read it. I would never suggest to anyone to use Flamestorm Baal Predators. Its just an easy 115 points for your opponent to take.

I can understand not wanting to change his list around too much which is why I mentioned using the Land Speeders instead since they are cheaper.

I agree if with a mech BA army I'd go the exact same route you would.

I've just had them work. Maybe I've gotten lucky. Then again, by the time they had the chance to deal with them I usually hd something bigger and scarier breathing down their neck, so maybe that's it.

WanderingFox wrote:
The ac/hb baal is amazing yes, but it's far better at hunting normal infantry and light vehicles than it is with dealing with hordes.

+1 to this. Even wounding on 2's without cover or armor saves, the AC/HB Baal will kill about 6.3 models on average per turn, assuming it can shoot everything. With cover, that's a little more than 3 models. I apologize if I keep belaboring this point, but AC/HB Baal are for killing vehicles, either because they have a low AV or because you get side/rear shots. The ubiquity of 4+ cover almost completely prevents the Heavy Bolter from being an anti-infantry weapon.

Never been a fan of Baals for anti horde, they just don't work, not enough shots. Low armour or small units for mop up is what the Baals do.