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GW policy on old models is to allow as is for base size and volume. The old pewter terminators are allowed to keep the small bases they come with. Old rhinos do not have to bulk up for LOS. What is your opinion on playing the old Grotesque as the new orgun like Grotesque? Name wise they are the same model, but is it pushing the rules of on models too much. Playing the old grotesque as new saves gamers a ton of money with the new models running at 20 bucks.

I don't remember what the old one looked like, but if it's a GW fig then you should be fine to play with it.

The old grotesque are about the size of an imperial guardsman. The new ones are a bit larger than an Orgun.

What he said. It's a GW model, and if anyone complains, ask them to show you where in the rulebook where it says you must use the most recent, overpriced models.

Very good. Time to field 10 man grotesque units.

Now that is cheeky in competitive play but ok for a friendly game.

But no rule says you can't

Playing with official GW models is not "cheeky." Players should appreciate the evolution of the GW brand.

Marthike wrote:Now that is cheeky in competitive play but ok for a friendly game.

But no rule says you can't

How is it "cheeky in competitive play"?

It's considered a little 'cheeky' where models have changed significantly enough to affect how they function in-game... particularly when the rules have significantly changed from the original model's as well.

The original Eldar Avatar, for example, was only a little bigger than a current Space Marine. While it's technically still legal, it will earn you some frowny faces unless he's somehow bulked up a little so he has a similar LOS profile to the current model, as he's a lot easier to hide from enemy shooting.

Peronally, I have no problems with playing against older models... but I can understand how some might take it amiss.

insaniak wrote:It's considered a little 'cheeky' where models have changed significantly enough to affect how they function in-game... particularly when the rules have significantly changed from the original model's as well.

The original Eldar Avatar, for example, was only a little bigger than a current Space Marine. While it's technically still legal, it will earn you some frowny faces unless he's somehow bulked up a little so he has a similar LOS profile to the current model, as he's a lot easier to hide from enemy shooting.

Peronally, I have no problems with playing against older models... but I can understand how some might take it amiss.

As could I, but people will complain over little. In fact I think older models should hold precedent. They came first. It is asinine to think some one should upgrade an expensive model simply because something new and shiny comes out.

Valkyrie wrote:

Marthike wrote:Now that is cheeky in competitive play but ok for a friendly game.

But no rule says you can't

How is it "cheeky in competitive play"?

Mainly LOS, but since GW allow it I will be happy to play against them. However, this will lead to tournament players using them because of LOS.

Just like the rhinos, quite a few players use older rhinos because they get better LOS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purpleboxbluebox wrote:

insaniak wrote:It's considered a little 'cheeky' where models have changed significantly enough to affect how they function in-game... particularly when the rules have significantly changed from the original model's as well.

The original Eldar Avatar, for example, was only a little bigger than a current Space Marine. While it's technically still legal, it will earn you some frowny faces unless he's somehow bulked up a little so he has a similar LOS profile to the current model, as he's a lot easier to hide from enemy shooting.

Peronally, I have no problems with playing against older models... but I can understand how some might take it amiss.

As could I, but people will complain over little. In fact I think older models should hold precedent. They came first. It is asinine to think some one should upgrade an expensive model simply because something new and shiny comes out.

Rules change so sometimes models needs to change. I don't know what the rules were but right now is direct line of sight. The old rules seems to be if theres something in the way then you get your cover.

But its totally up to you if you want to buy new models, i personally would because they look so cool and this is GW they 'steal' our money anyway so I won't mind them 'stealling' a bit more of my money.

purpleboxbluebox wrote:

insaniak wrote:It's considered a little 'cheeky' where models have changed significantly enough to affect how they function in-game... particularly when the rules have significantly changed from the original model's as well.

The original Eldar Avatar, for example, was only a little bigger than a current Space Marine. While it's technically still legal, it will earn you some frowny faces unless he's somehow bulked up a little so he has a similar LOS profile to the current model, as he's a lot easier to hide from enemy shooting.

Peronally, I have no problems with playing against older models... but I can understand how some might take it amiss.

As could I, but people will complain over little. In fact I think older models should hold precedent. They came first. It is asinine to think some one should upgrade an expensive model simply because something new and shiny comes out.

They're not just "new and shiny" they're "completely different." Part of the reason GW added Wracks to the list was so that players could still use their old Grotesque models. Those two (old Grotesque -> new Wracks) are the closest analogues. Using the older models to represent a unit whose models are twice the size is...stretching it (because I don't want to accuse people I don't know of cheating).

As long as they are painted, feel free to use your old models. Just don't try to fit 10 in a Raider! Also, it's Ogryn people, Ogryn.

Homer

They are fine to use. I use old Rhinos because that is what I have. I use old Preds because that is what I have. I use old Vindicators because that is what I have.

If I go out and buy one new model, it will stick out from very thing else, and destroy the look of the army.

Yes, you can use the old models. This is incontrovertible.

The new models are pretty pimp, though, so personally, I'd think about upgrading.

I think this comes down to the old "What exactly is modeling for advantage?" question.

Basically, if you can honestly say that one of the following reasons is why you use one model over another, you're fine:

1) I think the old model (or conversion or scratch-built) looks way cooler.
2) This old model (or conversion or scratch-built) was made/purchased before the new official model was released and it's all I have.
3) This old model (or conversion or scratch-built) is being used to give my army a more uniform look.

If you have to resort to one the following, you're a cheaty-face:

1) I use this old model (or conversion or scratch-built) because it has an advantageous LOS profile.
2) I use this old model (or conversion or scratch-built) because it has an advantageous base size
3) I take my toy soldiers game so seriously, I will exploit every possible advantage I can. Because winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.

I'd only use the old model as a Wrack.

They sold it to you as a grotesque, so it's a grotesque

I'd have no issue playing you as long as you told me that they are Grotesques not Wracks, but i can see other folk taking issue. I've had to repurpose my old ork trukks as buggies because people whined too hard (especially those using RT era rhinos for cover abuse, for some reason... ).

Ascalam wrote:They sold it to you as a grotesque, so it's a grotesque

I'd have no issue playing you as long as you told me that they are Grotesques not Wracks, but i can see other folk taking issue. I've had to repurpose my old ork trukks as buggies because people whined too hard (especially those using RT era rhinos for cover abuse, for some reason... ).

I personally do not like the new ork trukk, I would tell them to shove it and keep using the old ones. I bought them as ork trukks and they are staying ork trukks

How could anyone prefer the old trukk. It's awful.

Only issue I can really see is with people who don't know that is how the old Grotesques look. It's even possible a TO might not know. I'd recommend bringing the old codex even just in case, and if anyone doesn't believe you when you say they're the old models, show them the proof.

Leave one unglued in its base.

It should read GW and a date on one side, grtesque on the other if it's that old

Heh, I've got old rulebooks and codicies that have "Games Workshop" all over them...doesn't mean my opponent is going to be very happy with my using them in lieu of updated rules.

eh, i use the original avatar from 1990 which is slightly larger than a regular guy, i have the original oblits, i have both versions of the original metal marine speeders, and attack bikes, oringal war walkers and wraithlords, the original space marine dreads that are shorter than the rhinos etc....

i like collecting the old models whenever i can and i use them because thats what i have. and with the new "awsome" finecast garbage i want the old metal models even more.

everything i have ever read is that a GW model is legal, regardless of its production time, use the original base and your styling.

lixulana wrote:everything i have ever read is that a GW model is legal, regardless of its production time, use the original base and your styling.

That would be a useful observation to make if there were ever a GW rulebook to ever make a statement about the "legality" of old models. I would love to see the quote, but I doubt any such quotes exist.

In general, "There's no rule saying I can't use this model!" sounds a lot like "I'm being disruptive and should be asked to leave!" to a tournament organizer or referee.

solkan wrote:

lixulana wrote:everything i have ever read is that a GW model is legal, regardless of its production time, use the original base and your styling.

That would be a useful observation to make if there were ever a GW rulebook to ever make a statement about the "legality" of old models. I would love to see the quote, but I doubt any such quotes exist.

In general, "There's no rule saying I can't use this model!" sounds a lot like "I'm being disruptive and should be asked to leave!" to a tournament organizer or referee.

Models are to be put on the bases that they are supplied on. Thus if you are using an older model you would have a 25mm base. It's totally legal to use the old models. If a tourny org decides to let you go because of that, then he doesn't need to be one..

I'd be fine with it; you're using a Citadel model, after all.

If I were the DE player, though, I'd consider using them as Wracks or, if I really wanted them as Grotesques, be extremely lenient about line of sight and be very clear to my opponent about what they are.

I think the company only allows old stuff to be used so they don't piss people off, which is stupid because everyone is pissed off about something anyways, so now this is just another thing to be pissed about. Old models isn't that big a deal, so long as they aren't the opposite on the scale of size supposed to be. Bases should be updated to what is considered standard size. If you can't afford new bases you probably should ignore GW entirely. If you somehow can't upgrade (I know cutting metal tabs sucks though) just space your old terminators out more and assume the base is bigger, or glue paper circles underneath for all I care.

If anyone can't see that trying to gain unfair advantages aren't how you play with others, they need to go back to preschool.

Marthike wrote:Now that is cheeky in competitive play but ok for a friendly game.

But no rule says you can't

I'd think it's the other way around. Tournaments are about playing to win, cheesing your friends degrades the relationship.

insaniak wrote:It's considered a little 'cheeky' where models have changed significantly enough to affect how they function in-game... particularly when the rules have significantly changed from the original model's as well.

The original Eldar Avatar, for example, was only a little bigger than a current Space Marine. While it's technically still legal, it will earn you some frowny faces unless he's somehow bulked up a little so he has a similar LOS profile to the current model, as he's a lot easier to hide from enemy shooting.

Peronally, I have no problems with playing against older models... but I can understand how some might take it amiss.

This is the reverse of the reason I never wanted the forge world avatar or greater daemons (which are now special characters I think), and probably the same reason I never saw a defiler reach combat: they are no tougher in game (compare defiler to dreadnought), so the models being large they are just easier to kill.

I remember something, which is probably old, that said the base sizes are the minimum a model is supposed to have. No one ever did larger because of similar reason to above. I did hear about the epic diorama (sp?) bases on chaos lords, and who cares if that just means more models end up able to attack you, because you are badass enough that you encourage it.

Grakmar wrote:I think this comes down to the old "What exactly is modeling for advantage?" question.

Basically, if you can honestly say that one of the following reasons is why you use one model over another, you're fine:

1) I think the old model (or conversion or scratch-built) looks way cooler.
2) This old model (or conversion or scratch-built) was made/purchased before the new official model was released and it's all I have.
3) This old model (or conversion or scratch-built) is being used to give my army a more uniform look.

If you have to resort to one the following, you're a cheaty-face:

1) I use this old model (or conversion or scratch-built) because it has an advantageous LOS profile.
2) I use this old model (or conversion or scratch-built) because it has an advantageous base size
3) I take my toy soldiers game so seriously, I will exploit every possible advantage I can. Because winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.

This is true.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I'd only use the old model as a Wrack.

It's only because they were stupid and switched the names on the unit. It should be obvious old grotesques are the new wracks.

Ascalam wrote:They sold it to you as a grotesque, so it's a grotesque

This is way too hidebound and lacking intelligent thought (i'm not targetting you). See above.

Ascalam wrote:I'd have no issue playing you as long as you told me that they are Grotesques not Wracks, but i can see other folk taking issue. I've had to repurpose my old ork trukks as buggies because people whined too hard (especially those using RT era rhinos for cover abuse, for some reason... ).

This statement reminds me of the major reason the WYSIWYG rule even exists. Using models no one has any clue what they are is just as confusing as not representing any model changes, even more so if sizes are different.

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:
I personally do not like the new ork trukk, I would tell them to shove it and keep using the old ones. I bought them as ork trukks and they are staying ork trukks

When I play dawn of war (on the pc) I think every trukk is a battlewagon. So I'd have to agree...

MasterSlowPoke wrote:...the old trukk. It's awful.

...yet I'd have to agree here too. Armorcast battlewagon is worse, but in it's defense it's from a simpler time, and battlewagons bascially were trucks back then. These huge armor 14 rediculous things would've been considered tanks of the size 40k orks didn't get outside of Epic. The truck wasn't any worse (or better) than the other vehicles at the time, it was just stupid because unless you modified it, it could only hold 3 models, and the rules then and now were probably both 10+.

erikwfg wrote:I remember something, which is probably old, that said the base sizes are the minimum a model is supposed to have.

The rule in 4th edition was that you could put larger bases on your models, but not smaller.

This edition, it's just a blanket 'use the base it's supplied with'...

'This is way too hidebound and lacking intelligent thought (i'm not targetting you). See above.


That's kind of like saying 'i don't mean to offend you, but...' and then saying something offensive. It doesn't stop the comment being offensive. You quoted me and then insulted me, therefore you are targetting me


Ascalam wrote:
I'd have no issue playing you as long as you told me that they are Grotesques not Wracks, but i can see other folk taking issue. I've had to repurpose my old ork trukks as buggies because people whined too hard (especially those using RT era rhinos for cover abuse, for some reason... ).

This statement reminds me of the major reason the WYSIWYG rule even exists. Using models no one has any clue what they are is just as confusing as not representing any model changes, even more so if sizes are different. '


I'm not binning my old models just because they are old. When it comes to ork vehicles who actually leaves them stock anyway? If you can loot a Monolith you can repurpose a trukk that's buggy sized anyway. Not everyone gives a flying fernel about WYSYWYG outside of tournaments, anyway

If it's the size of a buggy, and has a guy driving and a guy on the back with a big pintle gun, it's pretty easy to tell what it is, if you've ever faced orks. If you haven't you'll be asking what it is anyway.

Random example for you.

Suppose they issue new space marines that are half again the height, two-headed and look pretty goofy to boot (beyond the normal), with 4 legged anime-look dreads with different looking guns.

Would you allow people to use their old models? I would.

It is pretty obvious old grotesques are new wracks. Note the winking face at the end of the post. It indicates that the post is not entirely serious