Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I read the above in an army list thread and I'm wondering why that is, especially since I intend to use those very same boxes to teach someone the game later this week..?

in small point games more bodies is always a plus

Khador only comes with 3 models, 2 Heavys + Caster
Cryx comes with 4, 2 Lights + 1 Heavy + Caster

Khador jacks have SPD 4, Cryx Lights have SPD 7

Unless you can take out both of the light's they are just going to run up and arc Venom all over your caster. For Khador this is a problem because you have 1 ranged weapon and your jacks are soo slow that they aren't going to be too far ahead of your caster to engage, so the Cryx lights will just slip around to spray you.

It's not impossible for Khador to win in a Battlebox game against Cryx the odds are just stacked a little against them.

I think that it's pretty evenly matched up. Sure they have more models just like Menoth's BB, but Juggernaut and Destroyer are monsters in melee and the bone chickens will have a hard time catching Sorscha alone with no jacks nearby to counter-charge/attack unless you play very poorly.

Not to mention that Sorscha herself can charge 11" with boundless + 2" with reach for a total of 13" threat range to beat ass on any bonechickens that overextend.

The Cryx heavy, the Slayer, is fast and decently strong in melee but is fragile as all hell. The Juggernaut can easily mash him on the charge and if you crit freeze it's good night.

The biggest thing probably to winning is for the Khador player try and land a bombard on the bone chickens and boost the damage. Then charge and wipe them up with either the Destroyer or Juggy. Once the support is dealt with Sorscha can move up and get ready to assassinate Denny with feat.

Cryx comes with three Arc Nodes and a caster who will spell assassinate you if one of those nodes gets past your two jacks. While you're trying to do that, they also have a heavy jack coming in after you. Denny's spell list is also particularly effective vs Khador. The one game where I've done the Cryx v Khador battlegroup boxes it wasn't even close. I ended up just toying with my opponent to earn league achievements (throw a jack, lock a jack, slam over a caster, ect).

Honestly for teaching new players, I would go with Cygnar and Cryx. They have a good mix of buffs and debuffs, one heavy a side, guns and melee, arc nodes, ect. But really any combo but Cryx v Khador.

The problem there is, Cryx vs Khador's all I've got. I could, feasibly, change some of the models in use, but I don't have another army. For Khador my model choices are pSorscha, pVlad, 2 Juggs and a Destroyer. For Cryx I have pDenny, pGaspy, Venethrax, a Slayer, several Deathrippers, a Defiler, Cankerworm, and assorted solos/infantry. As it's an intro game(s) I'd like to keep things as simple as possible, naturally, but I also want to avoid balancing issues. Any suggestions are more than welcome. (I also have Deathjack, which I could proxy as another Slayer if necessary, though I'd prefer not to have to.)

If you don't drop the Denny Bomb (Feat + Parasite + Crippling Grasp), it's more fair of a matchup.

12thRonin wrote:If you don't drop the Denny Bomb (Feat + Parasite + Crippling Grasp), it's more fair of a matchup.

This, if you are playing the demo, just remember its a demo game (aka you have to lose). If its 2 people with you observing/explaining the rules just ignore the big combos.

I wouldn't worry about it if you are just teaching one or two people how to play.

If you are the one playing cryx then don't worry about always using crippling grasp or anything. If you have two people learning let them switch up sides if it becomes too onesided. Frankly when it comes to first timers they are still trying to learn the rules and abilities. if they happen across the combo great. If not you can explain it later after they have played a bit and use it for learning.


BTW, to whoever said the cryx box comes with 4 models...It comes with 5. 3 nodes, slayer and denny. And with crippling grasp it basically comes down to 2 on 5. :( The 4 model box they describe is the Cygnar box (and maybe Menoth?)

12thRonin wrote:If you don't drop the Denny Bomb (Feat + Parasite + Crippling Grasp), it's more fair of a matchup.

Is that legal? To offensive upkeep spells?

Page 78, only one friendly and one enemy upkeep at a time I'm afraid.

Still, Crippling Grasp + Dennys feat is usually more than enough.

I like to add Gorman's Black Oil to that combo.

Throw in Bane Thralls Dark Shroud, then hit 'em with a Ripjaw's AP attack.

Armor what?

obsidianaura wrote:

12thRonin wrote:If you don't drop the Denny Bomb (Feat + Parasite + Crippling Grasp), it's more fair of a matchup.

Is that legal? To offensive upkeep spells?

Not on the same target but put one spell on each of the destroyer and the Juggy (you have to set this up the turn before since you have to upkeep at least one of them) will result in one dying horribly to a fully loaded Slayer and a swarm of nodes making the other cry for mommy. Both heavies being armor 15 is worse for the Khador player than one being arm 12.

Not to mention Crippling Grasp preventing charge, run, or power attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its good to note that the Cryx box is 14pts where all the rest weigh in at 11.

Taking away one bonejack can tip it too far the other direction though

If you swap pVlad for Sorcha then that becomes a more even fight. Boundless Charge + Feat results in Jugger charging 13 inches, which can easily catch bone chickens or the Slayer and force Denny to use her feat defensively, instead of offensively.

Vlad camping focus and/or casting BoK puts him at Def18/ARM22 which means he can slowly plod through the Cryx player's battlegroup and WTFPWN Denny with one good charge.

sourclams wrote:If you swap pVlad for Sorcha then that becomes a more even fight. Boundless Charge + Feat results in Jugger charging 13 inches, which can easily catch bone chickens or the Slayer and force Denny to use her feat defensively, instead of offensively.

Vlad camping focus and/or casting BoK puts him at Def18/ARM22 which means he can slowly plod through the Cryx player's battlegroup and WTFPWN Denny with one good charge.

But would subbing in Vlad for Sorscha overcomplicate things for a new player? (I don't have much formal experience with my Khador yet)

Not really IMO. I think that Vlad probably is more straight forward. All you have to do is decide if you want Blood of Kings or Signs and Portents up that turn or does the Jug have a target in range for the feat + boundless charge. The Juggy can almost outthreat Denny's feat so it gives the Khador player a chance to play the maneuver game and force the Cryx player to have be more defensive with the Slayer.

If you want simple, throw pButcher in instead of Sorscha.

The model discrepancy is worse than stated, since the first thing Deneghra will do is cast Crippling Grasp on one of your jacks.

So it's three arc nodes + Slayer vs. Juggernaut.

Asphyxious vs. Vlad would be a more interesting battlebox match-up, I think.

More interesting, perhaps, but easier for a new player?

MrDwhitey wrote:Page 78, only one friendly and one enemy upkeep at a time I'm afraid.

As I understand it, you can drop both Crippling Grasp and Parasite on the same unit, but come next turn you can only Upkeep one of them. Of course, if your opponent is dead that doesn't really matter.

Another thing to note with the Cryx vs. Khador box is how great Ghost Walk can be. If you spend your focus with Sorcha it leaves her pretty low on the Armor side of things and since Khador doesn't get an Arc Node Sorcha will need to be pretty close to her bots if she's buffing them. Ghost a Deathripper through whichever Heavy is in the way and enjoy PS13 Sustained Attacks. My last Khador vs. Cryx game I ghosted Denny herself in to do the deed.

Kirbinator wrote:

MrDwhitey wrote:Page 78, only one friendly and one enemy upkeep at a time I'm afraid.

As I understand it, you can drop both Crippling Grasp and Parasite on the same unit, but come next turn you can only Upkeep one of them.

Nope. Upkeep spells are upkeep spells, whether they are upkept or not. Thus only one per target.

Right.

If target has Crippling Grasp on it, and you cast Parasite on that target, Crippling Grasp goes away instantly.

No kidding? Huh. Oh well, at least I never cheated anyone since I always kept Crippling on <insert scary Heavy unit>. Her spear did a lovely job of dropping warcaster defense on its own.

Kirbinator wrote:Another thing to note with the Cryx vs. Khador box is how great Ghost Walk can be. If you spend your focus with Sorcha it leaves her pretty low on the Armor side of things and since Khador doesn't get an Arc Node Sorcha will need to be pretty close to her bots if she's buffing them. Ghost a Deathripper through whichever Heavy is in the way and enjoy PS13 Sustained Attacks. My last Khador vs. Cryx game I ghosted Denny herself in to do the deed.

Ghost Walk only allows you to ignore terrain. It doesn't allow you to move through models, you need incorporeal for that. Also, you need line of sight to charge something so no charging through a building or a heavy (when incorporeal) as that will block LoS.

Ok now I may have cheated. The way it was set up there was room to see Sorcha, just no room to move between the two heavies. Oh well.