Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Last night I was looking for inspiration for a new list to play, I came across an anomaly (rare in a GW codex I know). Logan Grimnar allows "Wolf Guard units to count as troops in an army that includes Logan Grimnar".



So after looking through all the other Codexes I noticed that this doesn't say "to count as troops choices", as the rest of the codexes before and after the Space Wolves one do, so I can only assume that this means the wolf guard will remain as an Elites choice and I still need to field at least two troops choices. If the I am allowed to take Wolf Guard Units as a troops choice, because it doesn't specify a Wolf Guard Pack (it specifically says unit) this means anything that is listed as Wolf Guard on page 30 of the Codex is now a troops choice, hello Wolf Guard Battle Leader as a troops choice (and I will gladly take six of them!!!). Also what happens when I select 6 wolf guard units and then go and put one single model into a Wolf Scout pack as a pack leader, does the wolf guard still count as a troop based on Logan's rule, or because he is no longer in a Wolf Guard specific unit does he lose this trait? (does he get it back when the squad dies and leaves him alone at the end of the game?)



The same situation exists for the Fenrisian Wolves when you take Canis (they count as Troops - no mention of troops choice).



Counting as troops (and not a troops choice) is similar to what Pedro does to Sternguard (still bought as Elites but count as scoring), so there is a precedence here as well. And effectively means they are scoring and can be deployed in a Dawn of War mission as one of your troops choices, but doesn't negate your requirement to select troops choices from the codex as normal.



Thoughts?

No, they are a troops choice.

From the perspective of rules, whenever something 'counts as' something else, then for all intents and purposes it counts as that other thing. Because if it doesn't in some situation, then it isn't 'counting as' being that thing in that situation (and therefore is not following the rules).


Now if the rule said something along the lines of unit 'X' counts as being a troops choice, but only for the purposes of army selection (for example), then you would have a situation where the unit only counts as a troops choice in a limited scenario.

However, if the rule simply says that the unit counts as being a 'troops choice', then in all facets of the game it then counts as being a troops choice.

This is also in the GW SW FAQ:

Q. Are Wolf Guard Packs genuine Troops selections in the Force Organisation chart instead of Elites when fielded in an army with Logan Grimnar? If so, is this optional? (p82)

A. Yes, they count as Troops and take up Troops Force
Organisation chart selections. This is not an optional
choice, so you can have at most six Wolf Guard Packs in
an army with Logan Grimnar.

So there you even have an Official GW Answer.

PS the FAQs for all books can be found here

Can Wolf Guard Battle Leaders be taken as troops similar to Wolf Guard Packs?

They are both Wolf Guard units arent they?

No, one is a Wolf Guard unit, One is Wolf Guard battle leaders. You dont get a troop HQ unit...

One is a wolf guard pack, the other is a wolf guard battle leader.

How is one a wolf guard unit but not the other?

You can get a troop HQ unit already; they are called tervigons...

Because one is called WOLF GUARD and the other WOLF GUARD BATTLE LEADER

See how the two are differently named?

Storm bolters are not the same as bolters, despite having the same word in both of them. ONe lets you use special issue ammunition, the other doesnt.

Which one is called WOLF GUARD?

I see two;

WOLF GUARD PACK

and

WOLF GUARD BATTLE LEADER

read your codex.

pack == unit. Try again.

Which one is a unit of Wolf Guard? Just one entry. The other entry is a unit WOlf Guard Battle Leader. Not the same thing, not at all.

(btw - have read it, oddly enough.)

so independent characters arent units?

Sigh. Did I say that? No. Try again.

One is a unit of WOlf Guard. One is a unit of Wolf Guard Battle Leader.

See these two bolters: one is a storm bolter, the other is a bolter. You are attempting to make the claim that including the word "bolter" [wolf guard] makes them both eligible for special issue ammunition [wolf guard units are troops]

Youre wrong, in other words.

You are saying that a unit of 'wolf guard pack' is a unit and saying that a unit of 'wolf guard battle leader' is not a unit.

You are trying to say that wolf guard from the wolf guard pack is a keyword but the wolf guard from the wolf guard battle leader is not.

You cant have it both ways.

You seem to think that Wolf Guard (the elites version) are simply called Wolf Guard; they are not. The entry is called 'Wolf Guard Pack'

Your references to Storm Bolter and Bolter is misplaced because you are not reading what the entry of the Elite choice of the wolf guard actually says (hence why I told you to read the codex)

he basically means that they are 2 different units and logan grimnars ability only works on the wolf guard Pack.

In the SW codex there are Wolfguard Battle leaders and the wolf guard pack. 2 separate entries in the codex meaning 2 separate units. The ability of logan Grimnar partains ONLY to the wolf guard pack as FAQ'd by GW(they were the only ones written down in the FAQ as effected by the ability).


I would suggest asking your FLGS so that you dont get trolled here but they might laugh. (has happened to someone else) ;P

The wording in the FAQ Kommissar Kel quoted makes it abundantly clear that the rule only applies to wolf guard packs.

What he is saying is that Wolf Guard Packs are a unit of Wolf Guard, Wolf Guard Battle Leader is a unit of a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader. Look at the stat lines for models in such units. They are not the same.

Homer

Page 30 of the Space Wolves codex lists Wolf Guard Battle Leaders as Wolf Guard

Utterly irrelevant, as their Unit Entry in the table at the back which actually lets you pick your army doesnt list them as WolfGuard.

Additionally - do not lie. Especially when it is so easy to catch out.

I said: One is a unit of WOlf Guard. One is a unit of Wolf Guard Battle Leader.

You said that in fact I said: You are saying that a unit of 'wolf guard pack' is a unit and saying that a unit of 'wolf guard battle leader' is not a unit.

The latter is a lie. Retract it.

"Wolf Guard Battle Leader" /= "Wolf Guard [pack=unit]"; one can be made troops, the other cannot. I'll give you a hint, it isnt the first

I don't have my codex handy right now but what are the unit compositions for each entry? That should clear up any confusion you have Aeon.

There are 2 ways to look at the rule:

1) There is no such thing as a "wolf guard unit" therefore Logan's rule does nothing. There is a Wolf Guard battle leader, which is a unit of 1 model, and there is Wolf Guard packs, which are purchased as units of 3-10 models

or

2) Only Wolf Guard Packs are "Wolf Guard Units", as they are "units" comprised of "Wolf Guard" models whereas the Wolf Guard battle leader is a "Unit" comprised of a single "Battle Leader"

Oh Aeon, always stirring up Dakka

It's a fair point, though. There is no unit called a "Wolf Guard unit": there are "Wolf Guard Packs" and "Wolf Guard Battle Leaders". Both are units, and both are Wolf Guard; ergo, they are both "Wolf Guard units".

The comparison to bolters and storm bolters is misleading, because it's not the same situation.

Common sense would have one agree with Nos, but one could argue otherwise and not be incorrect.

Though I think with Aeon being Aeon, he's just trying to yank your chain

The rules lawyering here is laughable...