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Well i dont understand the basic force wepon for a start, let me tell you guys what i think and you slap me and tell what it really is

Basic force wepon can only be used against a model with more than 1 wound because it can only be done agaisnt a modle that suffered a unsaved wound. ok?

A GK assult phase however would be
(GK have higher I ) move to base contact, do a psychic test, pass, all wounds cause instant death,
(GK lower I ) GK move to base contact, get hit, GK hit back, kill someone ( the unsaved wound bit), do a Psychic test, pass it, all wounds next turn are instant kills.

Any help with this unsave wound stuff would help, no point haveing GK if i carnt use their friken wepons properly when their strength is CC.

With my Imperial Fists i always kept out of CC, fluff reasons

I havn't had much experience with Force Weapons, but from what I recall you don't do the test before combat, its after you wound a model and it fails its save you do a psychic test. If you pass then its removed.

After the first unsaved wound you test to activate. After that all attacks with force weapons regardless of initiative for that unit cause ID. Grey knight codex page 54.

As above.

For normal force weapons you take the psychic test after you cause an unsaved wound; if you pass it A wound that you caused now causes instant death

For Grey Knights tehy test at exactly the same time; after the first unsaved wound is caused but BEFORE you remove any casualties. At this point every single wound caused by that unit causes instant death, regardless of Init step

I think we should start more at the beginning. In the BRB force weapons are used like power weapons (no armor save). They also give you a psychic power (the weapon itself) which lets you kill anything you wounded. You use this power after the wound is done, and it's supposed to only affect 1 target.

GK's seem to be special in that their weapons activate the same way (though with brotherhood of psykers it takes one test to activate the whole squad), but the effect seems to apply to all future wounds that phase. If it wasn't such a psychic and focused army then i'd think the person writing the rules just had no clue.

So their weapons ignore armor saves, and if they use them as a psychic power they inflict instant death for the rest of the turn (which is only avoided by eternal warrior special rule). Now the daemonbane ability was included to be able to kill large daemons, because they usually have eternal warrior. This happens regardless of whether the weapons were activated or not, it's automatic. If they fail a Ld then are said to be casualty, which is not instant death, thus it works vs those with eternal warrior. The grammar behind it does sound a bit stupid.

Also each nemesis weapon does something special, though not all of the abilities are offensive. On a side not, I just realised the staff is a force weapon too, I thought it gave you a 2+ cc save but removed your weapon. Epic fail, but at least now I may field one. Anyways, each nemesis weapon ability is easy to figure out and it's all listed on the same page.

All nemesis weapons are special close combat weapons, so the only way to get the +1 A for dual wielding is to combine them with another of the same type, or with a normal close combat weapon. Yet thunder hammer rules say they only get a bonus attack if combined with itself, so a close combat weapon wouldn't work. I'm guessing nothing on the list even has the option to combine nemesis with a basic cc weapons, except maybe for an inquisitor. Combining these weapons may work differently when it comes to walkers, which for the GK's is only their dreadnought, but I never got that into it because they don't have the option for 2 nemesis weapons. To touch on that a little more, the Dreadnight is a mostrous creature, not a walker, so he does not get the double strength for his fist, because DCCW's say walker only. He gets it for a thunder hammer, because that's normal, and it's nemesis ability removes it's penalty of hitting on a

It could also help if I say that the mentioning of +1 attack for a pair of falchions was completely unnecessary, as was not making dreadnoughts and dreadknights have their own separate types of fists.

So this should be everything, unless I forgot something.


Edit: Which I did. A GK assault phase would be charge, attack, wound, psychic test. Using a force weapon, and many other psychic powers, can happen on enemy turns as well.

The GK's aren't stupid because as you can see they can all ignore armor and can kill most things in 1 hit. What's stupid is that the main ability of a nemesis weapon doesn't work against the majority of the things in codex: Daemons, because most or all have eternal warrior (I heard) and use mainly invulnerable saves. Actually that mostly contradicts one of the best things force weapons were good against back in the day.

Gk force weapons ignore deamon eternal warrior

cgage00 wrote:Gk force weapons ignore deamon eternal warrior

Incorrect. They have Daemonbane, which is something entirely different.

cgage00 wrote:Gk force weapons ignore deamon eternal warrior

true, but not through the Force weapon power. They will kill an EW Daemon without ever activating the power(providing the Daemon Fails it's test).

cgage00 wrote:Gk force weapons ignore deamon eternal warrior

They used to ignore it through the force weapon activation (because they specifically "removed from play").

Now, they remove daemons from play if they suffer a wound AND fail a test (leadership I believe) at the end of combat. However, the normal Force Weapon power has no effect versus Eternal Warrior.

Shame that the culexus no longer reduces LD, though he would be hard to use in an army of psykers. Or not, how many shots can he get a turn or was that just old rules? The shame is how all the assassins were simplified, no infiltration for most, if any.

Also a thing to keep in mind is that using the force property of the weapon counts as a psychic test, so if that squad has used a psychic power that player turn(hammerhand or similar) and have a limit of 1 psychic power per turn, it may not use the force weapon to cause instant death. It may however still cause wounds like a normal power weapon.

Yes, and also remember that there is a different between a game turn, a player turn, and a phase. There's no need for me to write all the turn and psychic rules out, and I'd have to go look it up myself if I wanted to.

So is this thread the most thoroughly answered question ever seen on a forum?

so my question then is do wounds happening on the Init step of activation cause instant before being applied or after wounding?

for an example:

4 Orc Nobs with 2 wounds each that are identical against some GK's

the GK's cause 3 unsaved wounds at their highest Init.

now do we apply 2 wounds to 1 Nob, killing it, and the last wound to another Nob. Then activate Force Weapon killing the wounded Nob and causing all attacks at lower Init's to be ID.
or
do we resolve the attacks one at a time(lets say they have a 5+ inv save), wait for one to fail the save and thus suffer an unsaved wound, then activate force weapons before applying the further wounds as ID? Potentially killing 3 Nobs instead of 2 in this example.

i tend to believe the first way, applying wounds, rolling all their saves, then activating force weapons killing any wounded models and buffing the rest of your lower init attacks to ID status.

08ak1 wrote:so my question then is do wounds happening on the Init step of activation cause instant before being applied or after wounding?

for an example:

4 Orc Nobs with 2 wounds each that are identical against some GK's

the GK's cause 3 unsaved wounds at their highest Init.

now do we apply 2 wounds to 1 Nob, killing it, and the last wound to another Nob. Then activate Force Weapon killing the wounded Nob and causing all attacks at lower Init's to be ID.
or
do we resolve the attacks one at a time(lets say they have a 5+ inv save), wait for one to fail the save and thus suffer an unsaved wound, then activate force weapons before applying the further wounds as ID? Potentially killing 3 Nobs instead of 2 in this example.

i tend to believe the first way, applying wounds, rolling all their saves, then activating force weapons killing any wounded models and buffing the rest of your lower init attacks to ID status.

I thought this wasn't GK related, just the basic rule of allocating wounds and how you do them. Wounds done at each initiative are considered simultaneous (should I post book and page numbers when I talk?, BRB 39). Pg 50 mentions force weapons are used after the saves are rolled, so this would be after that initiative but before the next. So if you expect them to activate, you might as well put as many wounds on multiwound models as you can (although if you are allowed saves doing this may be the only reason you get killed, hard choices). It says they activate their force weapons at the normal time, so before then it's basically a unit with power weapons.

Then this is where GK's become really weird. After the initiative where the first unsaved wound occurs, they may attempt to activate (which is normal). If they do so then anything wounded by the nemesis weapons right before then would die (normal), and so does anything else wounded until the end of that assault phase.

Keep in mind that this is not just instantly chunk, it is instant death after taking an unsaved wound. So all wounds would be allocated, then saved (if possible), then the wounded get instant deathed. Althought I don't know if there is a situation where this ever matters, because multi wound model units and instant death changes this. As BRB 26, bottom right, "if some unsaved wounds inflict instant death the player must remove unwounded models if possible". So nobz would die for each wound from activated nemesis. If there was normal wounds mixed in there could be a way for him to absorb one of those first, situation depending.

3 orks would die in your example, here is why:

GK's hit and only cause 3 wounds. these wounds can not be saved because no armor save may be taken. we take our 3 Inv saves at 5+ and fail all three.

So we have 3 unsaved wounds. Normally we would allocate wounds to wound groups, but there is only 1 wound group.

GK's then test for force weapon activation, pass and all 3 wounds now cause Instant Death, so 3 nobs die.

Edit: So initially I misread the above post, and wrote stuff, then saw there was no piont because it is correct.

Because of the situation listed, certain steps using the proper sequence change nothing. So a new person might think those steps either don't exist, or must be done in a different order. Proper procedure for the example is= roll to hit, roll to wound, allocate, save, take damage, psychic test, retroactive instant death. Well maybe it's not retroactive, because it's not going back to say the wound had instant death, it's just saying the model suffers instant death after the test.

I finally thought of an example in which the order makes a big difference, but it's not GK, and it's shooting. A melee one is more difficult to come up with because I don't want to search for a model which is not an IC and gets an invulnerable save (while the unit does not).

So say there is a squad of multi-wound models, and 1 important thing in the unit has an invulnerable save. They get shot by the horde of high strength weapons. Some people think that because the expendible squad members can't save and it causes instant death, that 1 model is removed for each, but if you do that then all leftover hits have to go to the model with the invulnerable save. Doing it the right way could actually mean each multi-wound model absorbs multiple shots, still dying, and the special model could end up only being allocated 1.

I did think of one with GK in close combat, but I don't care to look up whether it's possible, and I fixed enough in this post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to mention: someone in another topic asked about a Black Templar vow and nullifying GK nemesis. It made me notice, GK's could use their force weapons like a normal psyker, but they really never will. A force weapon wound gives you a chance to use a psychic power after a wound is already taken and done with, which basically says "if successfully activated, person previously wounded dies." While GK's 'activating' the squads weapons is more like a power that freezes the finalization of wounds after saves are failed, and activating the power applies instant death to all the unit's attacks before their wounds actually go through. They affect targets for the entire assault phase, failing a save vs a wound is the trigger that allows activation, but the wound hasn't been applied yet.

Does this matter? Idk. One thing that is apparent is they aren't using their force weapons in a way they are normally used.

Also, I think what i'm saying makes it sound like i'm tripping.
"It like, freezes time man, and then you get... finalization..."

DeathReaper wrote:3 orks would die in your example, here is why:

GK's hit and only cause 3 wounds. these wounds can not be saved because no armor save may be taken. we take our 3 Inv saves at 5+ and fail all three.

So we have 3 unsaved wounds. Normally we would allocate wounds to wound groups, but there is only 1 wound group.

GK's then test for force weapon activation, pass and all 3 wounds now cause Instant Death, so 3 nobs die.

ok good....almost get it now

say it was 4 orks, but still only caused 3 wounds which then caused 3 insta deaths due to passing pysic test, but for the last ork to die of insta death he would have to have passed his Inv save and the GK would have to pass another pysic test.

me gets it now, thanks all for helps

RogalDorn69 wrote:ok good....almost get it now

say it was 4 orks, but still only caused 3 wounds which then caused 3 insta deaths due to passing pysic test, but for the last ork to die of insta death he would have to have passed his Inv save and the GK would have to pass another pysic test.

me gets it now, thanks all for helps

I don't understand what you're saying. If there is only 3 wounds then only 3 nobz can die. If any of the 3 pass their invulnerable save they weren't wounded, so don't die. It's not 3 wounds and 3 instant deaths, it's 3 wounds that cause instant death. Instant death rules on multi-wound units say you remove fresh models if possible.