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Question:

They are Fearless because it is a squad of 30 Shoota Boyz! They don't break. My Rhino ends up right smack dab in the middle of them, perhaps slightly off-centered. You are supposed to move them the minimum distance to move the Boyz 1" away from the vehicle. Does the squad AS A WHOLE shift to move out of the way? Or does just the models that are under the Rhino move out of the way, essentially "wrapping" the Rhino with Boyz?

Reason why I ask is because the diagram shown under the Tank Shock section shows the entire unit of Orkz (if I recall correctly) moving away, not just individual models moving out of the way.

Can you qoute the relevant text from the rulebook?

The models that would remain under the tank are moved, maintaining coherency, rather than the whole unit.

htj wrote:The models that would remain under the tank are moved, maintaining coherency, rather than the whole unit.

Agreed, because being base to base is still maintaining coherency. So yea, you might want to think twice about tank shocking the middle of a 30 boy blob, because chances are good that your rhino and the unit inside will go bye bye

Yep, I just checked the wording.

The Tank Shock rules refer to if "some enemy models" end up in the way "these models" are moved.

It can get tricky though depending on the layout of the boyz. It is my understanding you cannot tank shock a unit out of coherency. So, were you to tank shock a congo line of orks, it could "pull" orks down the line.

Just remember that you cannot move models through other models - even friendly ones.

THis means you may need to move some models that arent in the path of the tank out of the way of the models that ARE in the path of the tank

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just remember that you cannot move models through other models - even friendly ones.

THis means you may need to move some models that arent in the path of the tank out of the way of the models that ARE in the path of the tank

This is not true; because the tank is already on top of them and you have to move them the least distance possible you can go "Through" the tank. As in if 6 models would be under the tank, 3 would move to the right and rear, an 3 would move to the left and rear both maintaining coherency with their unit and ending their moves 1" away from the tank.

Facts presented:
1) The models under the tank must move the shortest possible distance.
2) The models under the tank are already moving through the tank no matter what direction they move.
3) No allowance to move models not under the tank is given.
4) No allowance to move through Friendly models is given.

Yet if all your models are in btb with each other, you MUST move some models not under the tank, otherwise the models under the tank have no place to move to.

Sure they do... unless the Tank is in the Middle of a a very large unit that are all in B2B and surrounded on all sides; then the game just breaks(again).

For that to happen you would need a unit that is in a roughly 6X7 box formation, and the Tank(of the rough dimensions of a Leman Russ or Chimera) to end exactly in the center of said formation(that is the only way to have the tank over models, but not over an unbroken line that encompasses the tank).

Any smaller of a unit, or if the tank is not fully past an edge of models, and the whole unit underneath must pour out from the open-edge.

Kurce wrote:Does the squad AS A WHOLE shift to move out of the way?

Only those models under the tank move.

Reason why I ask is because the diagram shown under the Tank Shock section shows the entire unit of Orkz (if I recall correctly) moving away, not just individual models moving out of the way.

The diagram in the rulebook is showing them falling back.

Actually, models not under the tank can be forced to move. You cannot tank shock units out of coherency. So, it is possible if you were to tank shock into the middle of a mob of boys, some models NOT under the tank would have to shift in order to maintain coherency for the mob.

Green is Best! wrote:Actually, models not under the tank can be forced to move. You cannot tank shock units out of coherency. So, it is possible if you were to tank shock into the middle of a mob of boys, some models NOT under the tank would have to shift in order to maintain coherency for the mob.

Except that you are not given permission to do that.

The Tank Shock rules only tell you to move those models that would wind up under the tank. They simply don't cover what to do if that is impossible.

Moving other models to fit is a workable house rule, though.

You must move models under the tank
The only way to perform this action is to move other models
You must move other models

Its like being told you must arrive within 6" of an icon. The only way to ensuire this is to measure - it doesnt tell you to explicitly measure, but you must do so in order to comply with the rule

nosferatu1001 wrote:You must move models under the tank
The only way to perform this action is to move other models

Then the game comes to a screeching halt as you have reached a situation that the rules simply don't cover.

Again, moving other models is an acceptable workaround, but it's just not covered by the rules as they currently stand.

Its like being told you must arrive within 6" of an icon. The only way to ensuire this is to measure - it doesnt tell you to explicitly measure, but you must do so in order to comply with the rule

Well, no, it would be more akin to saying that since you must arrive within 6" of an icon, you're allowed to move other models out of the way to do so...

I was using another example of an implied action being required because of another rule: you must measure to ensure you are within 6", but the rules dont tell you to measure

You must move other models out of the way because you MUST move other models into the space they occupy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You must move models under the tank

Absolutely, 100% true.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The only way to perform this action is to move other models

Nowhere Near true, the only way to do this is to move through other models(the tank)

nosferatu1001 wrote:You must move other models

Again only in the situation that all models are completely surrounding the tank along with having models underneath it. If one of the outer edges of your unit are under the tank, that is the direction you models must pile out from under the tank.

So, in the situation where your mob of orks IS entirely surrounding the tank, you MUST move some of the mob

nosferatu1001 wrote:I was using another example of an implied action being required because of another rule: you must measure to ensure you are within 6", but the rules dont tell you to measure

It's a very different situation, though. Assuming that you're allowed to measure the distance when the rules tell you to place something within a certain distance isn't that big a leap. Assuming that you can move a model out of the way because you need to put another model in it's place is a completely different kettle of squig.

Not really - both require you to perform an additional action over that specified by the rules

That doesn't make them the same thing. Kicking a ball in the house and whacking someone around the head with a wet fish both require me to do something that I'm not normally allowed to do. That doesn't make them equally heinous infractions.

In this case, measuring is implied by a rule that requires you to place something within a certain distance of something else.
However, a rule that tells you to move specific models does not even remotely suggest that you can move other models as well.

You've just picked one course of action (move the other model out of the way) from several possibilities, and decided that it is the right one, when in reality it has no more basis in the rules than not moving the model forcing the vehicle to stop earlier, or moving the model through the intervening models, or performing some other completely different action that resolves the problem.

None of those things are implied by the rules. You just have to decide for yourself which is the most appropriate course of action to use as a house rule to cover the situation.

Except you can never move models through other models, whereas you can move those other models.

Not without specific permission to do so you can't.

Go take another look at the Tank Shock rules. There is nothing in there that allows you to move anything other than the models under the tank.

So again, acceptable house rule, but simply not covered by the actual rules.

The rules of tank shock for models under the tank say to move out of the way via the shortest route while still maintaining coherency. (papraphrasing as brb is not here).

Moving the models under the tank may (under certain circumstances) force the models under the tank to move away from other models in the unit (not under the tank). Since you must maintain coherency per the brb, you may have to move models not hit by the tank shock in order to keep coherency.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just remember that you cannot move models through other models - even friendly ones.

THis means you may need to move some models that arent in the path of the tank out of the way of the models that ARE in the path of the tank

This is not true; because the tank is already on top of them

The tank is not on top of them. The rules say "If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle..." emphasis mine. So you have to move the enemy models so that the tank does not indeed end up on top of them.