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Both my friends have space marines and i am going to battle with them on Sunday and last Sunday i lost and my leman russ battle tank and demolisher did almost nothing (but still did not get destroyed) as scatter meant most of my shots missed and i was up against a land raider and my battle cannon and las cannon was useless every turn i fired and either missed or did nothing. Should i change tactics, was i just unlucky or should i change LR variants?

Well for killing a Land Raider the Vanquisher is your friend but you have to hit it first...

Not sure what else you'd be looking for for killing regular marines. A LRBT should do it against them, but if that's not working for you I wouldn't know what to suggest. An Executioner, perhaps?

How can a S10 ordnance gun NOT do damage to a Land Raider? Just curious, did you scatter like mad or something?


Anyhow, both the LR variants you've been using are good against Space Marines, so you've either been unlucky or you've been shooting things in the wrong order. I'd suggest trying them a few more games and seeing if they work.

Executioners are excellent at killing the marines, killing marines on 2+ with a Blast 3 weapon is nothing to be sniffed at. The downside being that it won't be able to penetrate the Land Raider unless you give it lascannon sponsons or something.

Yeah i did get some bad rolls and am going to try probably the same ones again and i was scattering like mad as i never rolled about 2 direct hits in the game and i know how can a demolisher fail against a land raider i kept getting glancings and just stunning it even with a vendetta firing every turn at it as well. But i did manage to take out the rhino and predator annihilator.

What sort of list are you playing against and what kind of armor do you have other than the demo and battle tank?

The other armor i have is a chimera and a vendetta but i am going to buy some more LR's and i did this thread partially to decide on there turrets as well ideally they will be most of the rest of my army as i currently have 2 infantry platoons of 1 PCS and 3 IS and 1 HWS per platoon and i really love LR's. I have two main SM opponents one of which uses tactical marines, command squads, terminators, veterans, predator's, rhino's and a land raider. The other (who has 3000pts but we play 2000pts atm) uses razorback's , dreadnought's, drop pods, veterans, terminators, devastators, tactical marines and assault marines. Also in my army i have storm troopers and snipers and a command squad. I don't find too much of a problem with the rhinos/razorbacks it's the other armor that is hard to defeat as those can be taken out with auto cannon HWS and orders from my command.

Ideally your Demo and LRBT should be perfect for what you're facing.

The Demo should be targeting in this order:

1. terminators
2. veterans/tac marines/command squads
3. Enemy armor (str10 plus the best of 2d6 is solid)

The LRBT should be hitting:

1. Veterans/command squad/assaulties
2. Razorbacks/dreadnoughts/ devestators
3. everything else

Mind you these priorities should change based on which are able to ruin your armor, if his dreadnought has lascannons you should probably go after that, if his devs have lascannons then they are priorty. Basically take out things that can take out your armor.

Now you seem to have a great answer to your Landraider problem, storm troopers. If possible take a group of 5 with 2 melta guns, do the airborne assault special for them and plop them down within 6" of that landraider and have at it.

One more thing, use your infantry platoons to spread out around your tanks and keep any drop pod from being able to get a melta marine within 6". Worst case scenario they're shooting at av13 with a str8 weapon and you're able to blow them to smitherines the next turn.

Let me know how it goes.
Good luck!

Lastly, your demo isn't ideal for taking out av14 but its not the worst option. Yea you scattered away a lot last game but you should have a 33% chance at a Hit and then as long as you don't scatter over 6" (subtracting the bs3) you should still be on top of that raider. If you scatter with your stormtroopers you can still use that demo as an option.

I just want to make sure, since scattering that much and having that little effect with two of the best LR variants against marines is pretty bad. You were subtracting your BS from the scatter distance, right?
I mean even BS3, your average scatter distance should be right around 4-5 inches. With a 5 inch diameter blast, you should still be hitting something. Maybe you need to work on which unit member you target?

I would, however, suggest dropping the lascannon. It's not really worth it most of the time, you are better off moving for better positioning then getting one more BS3 lascannon shot. IMO at least.

What you really need is more melta or many more lascannons against the landraider. Meltas are the better option.

As said before, the executioner is fantastic for killing marines...who are on foot. The demolisher is your best bet for vehicle punching goodness (short of the vanquisher, but that is it's only role). For what you want, it sounds like another demolisher is your best bet.

Yes but against vehicles the center of the template must be on the vehicle to count as a hit on it right? I am also tempted to get a vanquisher as i like the look of it and it would be useful melta at 72" and i would rather not move closer to marines.

Selafyne wrote:Yes but against vehicles the center of the template must be on the vehicle to count as a hit on it right?

The centre hole must be on the vehicle otherwise the weapon hits at half Strength.

Like he said, you don't want those tanks shooting at the Land Raider. Melta Guns or Vendettas are your best bet there.

Thanks i have some spare meta storm troopers so i can switch them in i usually use plasma guns and thanks for the targetting advice i uselly go for armour vs armour after the devastators are taken out as he uses lascannons and plasma cannons typically.

I know the vanquisher takes a lot of Sh*t on the internet but i personally run it, and i like it. With pask and a lascannon its expensive at 220, but you can knock out double to triple its pt cost in a game.

Looking at the lists you're facing it may be a really reliable option, it would work great against the landraiders, razorbacks, and dreads.

Also with ordnance hitting vehicles i resolve as normal except use side armor right.

Only with ordnance barrage. Don't forget to roll 2d6 and take the highest result vs armor as well!

My favorites are still the good ol' LRBTs and Demolishers.

Sure there are a lot of new shiny tanks in the newest Dex, but at the end of the day I still have greater success, for the amount of points spent, the the good old fashioned Russes.

2D6 vs armour as well or is that only with "barrage".

Alerian wrote:My favorites are still the good ol' LRBTs and Demolishers.

Sure there are a lot of new shiny tanks in the newest Dex, but at the end of the day I still have greater success, for the amount of points spent, the the good old fashio Russes.

Absolutely. for 150pts you can't beat a Leman Russ Battle Tank and the damage it can shell out.


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Selafyne wrote:2D6 vs armour as well wooo

the vanquisher yes. Normal ordnance is 2d6 and take the highest roll, not a straight 2d6.

Thanks for the rule help.

Yeah great tactics guys i used my vendetta and demolisher for anti tank well demolisher started off anti troop as the tanks where further away but i got there in the end. I used the normal leman russ for the troops and it was amazingly effective wiping out a squad a turn. I also tried my new tactic of hiding troops behind my leman russes and moving forward which worked ok i had to run them out by the side in turn 2 but it saved the for the first turn. I won both my games but they where against the same person as the other one with the 3000pts did not turn up. And in the second game i forgot to call in my 10 man storm trooper squad.

Good to hear. Target prioritization is one of the most important parts (the most important?) of winning in 40k. I'm still trying to get better at it...

My vote is to the demolisher. AP2, can crack a monolith, large blasts, what more can one ask for, besides rear armor AV14?

SOFDC wrote:My vote is to the demolisher. AP2, can crack a monolith, large blasts, what more can one ask for, besides rear armor AV14?

Yeah, because all SM armies use Monoliths

Understanding, of course, that since a monolith is just a -bit- more durable than any vehicle the marines have, said cannon will have -even less- trouble? Is the signal coming through to you clearly now?

If you know you are facing Av14 vehicles, take a Pask Vanquisher AND vendettas. Yes, the vanquisher is specialized, but it pens armor like nothing else in the IG list, especially with Pask. Put on a LC in the front mount. MM sponsons may make sense as well, because Pask essentially makes them S9 and at BS4.

Regarding LRBT/Demolisher, I'd rather have colossi and executioners. Colossi are S6 AP3 and ignore cover, which is the death of devs and dismounted marines. BT's AP3 does not matter when you know the devs will be in cover 99% of the time and get 4+ or reinforced 3+ saves. Same goes for LRD's AP2, and besides, it is not easy to get within 24" of the devs. Against dismounted SM and if termies are a possibility, an executioner is the better choice - 3 small pies instead of one large one makes it much harder to miss everything, you still get AP2, and your range is longer (36"). If necessary, you can use the small pies to pop rhinos as well.

Frankly, I consider firing a single large template onto a vehicle an act of desperation. You get 1 in 3 chance to hit, and if you scatter, your expectation on 2d6 with BS3 is 4 inches - quote enough to have the center off the model and thus ineffective. So, let's face it, your ballistic skill with the pie in AT role is 2. Yes, let's repeat this.

You are BS2 when using your single precious large pie in AT.

I don't care what the AP is and how many dice you roll for pen, etc. It is all irrelevant if you miss. And miss you will. Look at the OP for evidence - two pies firing 5 turns will get 10 shots total, hitting only 1/3 of the time, so the expectation is 3 hits. He got 2. That is below average but not by much. There is a reason why vendettas have TL on their LCs, and why senior officers can TL the shots of HWTs.