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I'm thinking about buying some Flames of War stuff but I'm put off by several things (lack of local players is another issue, but that can keep for now. ):


1. High cost. It seems to me that the miniatures and books are wildly overpriced. In line with GW's prices, for example, which is insane. And the miniatures should cost less comparatively, being 15mm, right? $200 for a 15mm army seems a little expensive, but that's not even getting into...
2. Too much stuff. Okay, so let's say for 40k I've shelled out $400 on miniatures. But at least then it's only going to be another $80 for the rulebook and a codex. So the minis are cheaper in FoW... but then we have the books. The rulebook is $60 but then, even cutting out all the campaign boxes and other stuff that stands out as irrelevant, I'm going to need at least another $400+ on books. FoW seems kind of like Warmachine/Hordes in this respect. If you don't buy every book as it comes out, you can't keep up and don't stand a chance.
3. Weird choices. This is the Early, Mid, Late issue. Even GW hasn't thought of this one yet. I'm concerned that if I buy a Mid-War army and then find out everyone else locally plays Late-War, I'm screwed. Or vice versa, or any of the possible combinations. Is it me or is this Battlefront just trying to get players to buy three armies instead of one? How do players deal with this? Likewise, some other things don't make sense - I can wrap my head around two German armies fighting each other, for example (an uppity SS commander confronts his Wehrmacht general, for instance) but I can't quite comprehend how a Desert Rat army can end up fighting the Germans at Stalingrad or how a US army can fight a Russian army and so on.


So, am I crazy or is this game just not worth it? Are all the books necessary? Are they like the PP method or more like GW's codexes (i.e. you really only need the book for the one army you are collecting) or something in-between? If they're not all necessary, are any vital? How do players get over the three-armies issue? Is one period more common than the others? Do players just ignore the small inconsistencies?

Can anyone help me with answers or suggestions on how to get started? (Oh, and just as a bit of further info, I'm either interested in a British paratroop army or an Italian force.) Any help you could offer would be most appreciated.

Stu-Rat wrote:I'm thinking about buying some Flames of War stuff but I'm put off by several things (lack of local players is another issue, but that can keep for now. ):


1. High cost. It seems to me that the miniatures and books are wildly overpriced. In line with GW's prices, for example, which is insane. And the miniatures should cost less comparatively, being 15mm, right? $200 for a 15mm army seems a little expensive, but that's not even getting into... Do so searching online, sometimes you can get the minis cheap on sites like ebay. Not to forget that there are 3 party companies that make minis the same size that you could use. Some are plastic and much cheaper.
2. Too much stuff. Okay, so let's say for 40k I've shelled out $400 on miniatures. But at least then it's only going to be another $80 for the rulebook and a codex. So the minis are cheaper in FoW... but then we have the books. The rulebook is $60 but then, even cutting out all the campaign boxes and other stuff that stands out as irrelevant, I'm going to need at least another $400+ on books. FoW seems kind of like Warmachine/Hordes in this respect. If you don't buy every book as it comes out, you can't keep up and don't stand a chance. You don't need to buy every single book. Just go to your local store (if you have one)
3. Weird choices. This is the Early, Mid, Late issue. Even GW hasn't thought of this one yet. I'm concerned that if I buy a Mid-War army and then find out everyone else locally plays Late-War, I'm screwed. Or vice versa, or any of the possible combinations. Is it me or is this Battlefront just trying to get players to buy three armies instead of one? How do players deal with this? Likewise, some other things don't make sense - I can wrap my head around two German armies fighting each other, for example (an uppity SS commander confronts his Wehrmacht general, for instance) but I can't quite comprehend how a Desert Rat army can end up fighting the Germans at Stalingrad or how a US army can fight a Russian army and so on.They actually do it for more of a game play purpose. An early war tank would stand little to no chance against a late war Russian/German/american tank. Some of the other WWII games are a lot more strict when it comes to era of war. FOW is actually more relaxed than most. From my personal experience most people play Late War, but that's just me.


So, am I crazy or is this game just not worth it? Are all the books necessary? Are they like the PP method or more like GW's codexes (i.e. you really only need the book for the one army you are collecting) or something in-between? If they're not all necessary, are any vital?They are not all necessary, you do need the main role book, and the book from which your list is based off on. For example I want to do US paratroopers for Normandy. I would get the book turning the tide, this list ishttp://store.miniwargaming.com/product/fow-turning-tide.html . As long as Era remains the same any list can play any other list in the same Era. It won't be as balanced as if you play the same Eras, and fronts. But it is doable. How do players get over the three-armies issue? They would get 3 armies. Is one period more common than the others? From what I have seen late war is. But, you should check with players in your local area. Do players just ignore the small inconsistencies? Yes, they do.

Can anyone help me with answers or suggestions on how to get started? (Oh, and just as a bit of further info, I'm either interested in a British paratroop army or an Italian force.) Any help you could offer would be most appreciated.

For the British Airborne I'd recommend this book Turning The Tide, it contains every allied force/list that fought at Normandyhttp://store.miniwargaming.com/product/fow-turning-tide.html
The Italians are a bit more tricky, it depends on what Era you want.

If you have any more questions PM me. Also check out the flames of war website. A store that I recommend. http://stores.ebay.com/Discount-Games-Inc

Stu-Rat wrote:I'm thinking about buying some Flames of War stuff but I'm put off by several things (lack of local players is another issue, but that can keep for now. ):


1. High cost. It seems to me that the miniatures and books are wildly overpriced. In line with GW's prices, for example, which is insane. And the miniatures should cost less comparatively, being 15mm, right? $200 for a 15mm army seems a little expensive, but that's not even getting into...

If Battlefront's prices are a little steep for you, look into companies like the Plastic Solder Company, or Peter Pig. The great thing about Historical games is that no one can claim a copyright on a Panzer IV H, or British Infantry. Now, I will admit - Battlefront's prices may seem high, but what they produce is worth the money

2. Too much stuff. Okay, so let's say for 40k I've shelled out $400 on miniatures. But at least then it's only going to be another $80 for the rulebook and a codex. So the minis are cheaper in FoW... but then we have the books. The rulebook is $60 but then, even cutting out all the campaign boxes and other stuff that stands out as irrelevant, I'm going to need at least another $400+ on books. FoW seems kind of like Warmachine/Hordes in this respect. If you don't buy every book as it comes out, you can't keep up and don't stand a chance.

Something to pick up would be the Open Fire! starter set. It contains 2 StuGs, 3 Shermans, some dice, some information on where to look when you want to expand, and a miniature rulebook. You can get all of this for $40 ebay.

With the books, you really only need what era you're going to play. Fortress Europe, for example, is sort of like the generic Late War book, and the lists in it can be played against all of the Late War books.

You can also go here to save some money: http://easyarmy.com/. Easy Army is an online army builder, supported by Battlefront, that charges $1 for the lists in each book - so, you can purchase all the lists from, say, Turning Tide, for $1. And the list building process is easy, intuitive, and looks just like the book.

You do not - let me repeat, DO NOT - have to buy every book. In fact, if late war is what you get into, definitely buy Fortress Europe. It has lists for Germans, British, Americans, and Soviets.

Battlefront also offers free breifings for mid and late war, for everything from Italian Freedom Companies to Finns fighting against the Soviets. Cool, eh?

3. Weird choices. This is the Early, Mid, Late issue. Even GW hasn't thought of this one yet. I'm concerned that if I buy a Mid-War army and then find out everyone else locally plays Late-War, I'm screwed. Or vice versa, or any of the possible combinations. Is it me or is this Battlefront just trying to get players to buy three armies instead of one? How do players deal with this? Likewise, some other things don't make sense - I can wrap my head around two German armies fighting each other, for example (an uppity SS commander confronts his Wehrmacht general, for instance) but I can't quite comprehend how a Desert Rat army can end up fighting the Germans at Stalingrad or how a US army can fight a Russian army and so on.

Another resource for you: http://www.whatwouldpattondo.net/p/player-finder.html.

What Would Patton Do is a fantastic blog and podcast, all about Flames of War. Feel free to email Steven or any of the crew with any questions you have. The player finder can help you get into contact with players near you, so you can find out what era you should buy into.

As toward Blue on Blue or Red on Red battles, well... you've got us there. Really, the game has been designed with the idea that Allies should be fighting Axis, whenever possible.

I've got this same problem, but I thought of a good solution - collect 2 armies. One, your main one, will be whatever you want it to be. The second should be a Tank Company from the opposite side. Tank companies, especially German Panzerkompanies, take less money to build, since tanks are expensive in-game. And buying tanks from non-Battlefront sources - Plastic Soldier Company makes quality, and relatively cheap, Panzer IV Hs and T-34s - makes building that 2nd army even cheaper.

Also, transitioning, say, late-war Fallschirmjagers to Mid-War Fallschirmjagers isn't all that difficult. In my local group, a Sherman is a Sherman, and a base of infantry is a base of infantry. They're pretty relaxed about proxying.

As said above there are several competing companies which do 15mm models. You could also look at 20mm and 1/72 for which there is a huge choice on the market in terms of metal infantry and plastic kits for tanks and infantry.

It's always worthwhile checking out your local scene before you commit to a particular game or period, and scale.

Ancients and Napoleonics are much more forgiving in terms of adaptation of armies to different period. (Though a couple of people did mention that my 1812 Russians still have 1809 pompom colours...)

WW2 developed so quickly that things are more difficult.

Thanks guys, all your responses have been very helpful. I'm going to have to think about this some more. Another problem, which you can't help me with, is that I'm worried about painting 15mm. I'm so used to painting 28mm-plus that it might be tricky. Maybe I'll pick up a small unit and give it a try.

Thanks again!

Stu-Rat wrote:Thanks guys, all your responses have been very helpful. I'm going to have to think about this some more. Another problem, which you can't help me with, is that I'm worried about painting 15mm. I'm so used to painting 28mm-plus that it might be tricky. Maybe I'll pick up a small unit and give it a try.

Thanks again!

Sha-pow!

Thanks guys, all your responses have been very helpful. I'm going to have to think about this some more. Another problem, which you can't help me with, is that I'm worried about painting 15mm. I'm so used to painting 28mm-plus that it might be tricky. Maybe I'll pick up a small unit and give it a try.

Smaller figures are easier to paint.

If you want to dip your toe in WWII for next to no money check out NUTS http://store.twohourwargames.com/nuts-ww2-skirmis2.html

And then get yourself some cheap as chips army men.

Stu-Rat wrote:I'm thinking about buying some Flames of War stuff but I'm put off by several things (lack of local players is another issue, but that can keep for now. ):


1. High cost. It seems to me that the miniatures and books are wildly overpriced. In line with GW's prices, for example, which is insane. And the miniatures should cost less comparatively, being 15mm, right? $200 for a 15mm army seems a little expensive, but that's not even getting into...
2. Too much stuff. Okay, so let's say for 40k I've shelled out $400 on miniatures. But at least then it's only going to be another $80 for the rulebook and a codex. So the minis are cheaper in FoW... but then we have the books. The rulebook is $60 but then, even cutting out all the campaign boxes and other stuff that stands out as irrelevant, I'm going to need at least another $400+ on books. FoW seems kind of like Warmachine/Hordes in this respect. If you don't buy every book as it comes out, you can't keep up and don't stand a chance.
3. Weird choices. This is the Early, Mid, Late issue. Even GW hasn't thought of this one yet. I'm concerned that if I buy a Mid-War army and then find out everyone else locally plays Late-War, I'm screwed. Or vice versa, or any of the possible combinations. Is it me or is this Battlefront just trying to get players to buy three armies instead of one? How do players deal with this? Likewise, some other things don't make sense - I can wrap my head around two German armies fighting each other, for example (an uppity SS commander confronts his Wehrmacht general, for instance) but I can't quite comprehend how a Desert Rat army can end up fighting the Germans at Stalingrad or how a US army can fight a Russian army and so on.


So, am I crazy or is this game just not worth it? Are all the books necessary? Are they like the PP method or more like GW's codexes (i.e. you really only need the book for the one army you are collecting) or something in-between? If they're not all necessary, are any vital? How do players get over the three-armies issue? Is one period more common than the others? Do players just ignore the small inconsistencies?

Can anyone help me with answers or suggestions on how to get started? (Oh, and just as a bit of further info, I'm either interested in a British paratroop army or an Italian force.) Any help you could offer would be most appreciated.

1) The cost of a 1,500 point FoW army is much lower than a 40k army. Look at the cost for a single starter box for Guard or Marines, then look at what you need to add to make a real list. Then look at the cost for something like a tank company in FoW. get back to me when you've actually compared prices.

2) You don't need every book as creep isn't an issue between sources. You can even play a free PDF list.

3) Ask what people play before you buy... Not a hard concept.

Try Waylandgames my friend, they have about 95% of all Battlefront miniatures at about 15-35% less the the Retail price. Where as buying a 1500 point army from BF would cost me 400$, It will now only cost me $287. This is how I'm probably going to buy my 1st FoW army (51st Highland division) And there are PDF's for some army lists on the Flames of War website. So if you see an army you would like to use from the PDF's, you won't need to buy any books cept the Rulebook

Stu-Rat wrote:I'm thinking about buying some Flames of War stuff but I'm put off by several things (lack of local players is another issue, but that can keep for now. ):


1. High cost. It seems to me that the miniatures and books are wildly overpriced. In line with GW's prices, for example, which is insane. And the miniatures should cost less comparatively, being 15mm, right? $200 for a 15mm army seems a little expensive, but that's not even getting into...
2. Too much stuff. Okay, so let's say for 40k I've shelled out $400 on miniatures. But at least then it's only going to be another $80 for the rulebook and a codex. So the minis are cheaper in FoW... but then we have the books. The rulebook is $60 but then, even cutting out all the campaign boxes and other stuff that stands out as irrelevant, I'm going to need at least another $400+ on books. FoW seems kind of like Warmachine/Hordes in this respect. If you don't buy every book as it comes out, you can't keep up and don't stand a chance.
3. Weird choices. This is the Early, Mid, Late issue. Even GW hasn't thought of this one yet. I'm concerned that if I buy a Mid-War army and then find out everyone else locally plays Late-War, I'm screwed. Or vice versa, or any of the possible combinations. Is it me or is this Battlefront just trying to get players to buy three armies instead of one? How do players deal with this? Likewise, some other things don't make sense - I can wrap my head around two German armies fighting each other, for example (an uppity SS commander confronts his Wehrmacht general, for instance) but I can't quite comprehend how a Desert Rat army can end up fighting the Germans at Stalingrad or how a US army can fight a Russian army and so on.


So, am I crazy or is this game just not worth it? Are all the books necessary? Are they like the PP method or more like GW's codexes (i.e. you really only need the book for the one army you are collecting) or something in-between? If they're not all necessary, are any vital? How do players get over the three-armies issue? Is one period more common than the others? Do players just ignore the small inconsistencies?

Can anyone help me with answers or suggestions on how to get started? (Oh, and just as a bit of further info, I'm either interested in a British paratroop army or an Italian force.) Any help you could offer would be most appreciated.

The biggies:

1) Yeah Battlefront's minis can be expensive, but there are other 15mm options out there that you can take advantage of and I just heard that airfix is starting up a 1/100 scale line to support games like FoW more cheaply. $200 for an army that covers your point needs is really not that bad at all when it comes to table top wargaming. Battlefront's minis are very nicely done too.
2) It can get pricey, but you don't need to buy everything. You need a rulebook first off and then from there you pick the period you want to play (EW,MW and LW) and buy the appropriate force book. For example, for europe and early war all you need to buy are the rulebook and the Blitzkrieg book. The Blitzkrieg book includes multiple lists for Poland, France, Great Britain and Germany. If you start out playing the Brits you don't need to go out and buy a new book just to play the germans or french. You have everything you need in that one book. For other periods, pick the area you are most interested in and buy the appropriate book. For Africa and the Mediterranean in MW pick up North Africa, or in Europe pick up Fortress Europe. Any of these books will give you numerous lists that enable you to play any force from the appropriate period or area. In 40k if you decide to play a new army you buy a new book. In FoW you only need to buy a new book if you want an army from a different theater of battle than you already have armies from.

Also you can do things affordably. If you, say, want to play British Airborne you can buy the full rulebook and then you can buy the A Bridge Too Far sourcebook. It has a number of different British Airborne late war lists in it, but is not a full sized hard bound book so is cheaper.
3) The primary reason for the 3 war periods is balance. Too many tanks/vehicles in LW are practically impossible for an EW force to deal with at all. Hence the break down. Best thing to do is hit your local store and find out who plays and what they play most often and start there. You will always find people who play different periods or even all periods, but it will give you a starting point. As for the alternative battles, again, you are looking at balance coming into play. Yeah it doesn't make a whole lot of historical sense for the british desert rats to fight a MW russian strelkovey company, but can still make for a great game. Some groups pick a book an force everyone to play a list from that book, but most don't. Also blue on blue battles (forces from the same side or country fighting each other) are termed as "training exercises". Remember one Sunday afternoon in our recent EW league that the timing of when people showed up had a British on British, French on French and German on German battle going simultaneously.

YES the game is definitely worth it. It is a lot of fun and a lot better written and plays much more smoothly than 40k does. Don't get me wrong. I've been playing 40k since the Rogue Trader days and still love it, but GW's rules and army lists really are just suck at a lot of levels anymore. Too many fiddly special rules to make the latest codex the greatest thing ever just gets on my nerves. No worries in FoW for a new super awesome mega-bombad tank showing up out of the blue for a new army list just because someone on the design team thought it was such a cool idea. Yeah you can get things like sturmtiger assault howitzers, but they are priced pointswise and allowed optionwise to keep them as rare on the tabletop as they should be. As I said above hit your local store and find out what people play and start in that period. Late War tends to be the most popular as it has all the coolest toys available like tigers and panthers and the like. Also to defray the costs, start small. Put together a 500 point force, build it and give it a go for a while. Then move up another 500 or so until you eventually have 1750-2000 points. Just like any pricey product out there spreading out the costs limits the pain. Heck an XBox 360 is uber expensive if when you buy it you also buy *all* the games you want to play with it at the same time.

If you give FoW a try enjoy! It really is a great game!
Skriker

I came from GW 40k to FoW and as someone that has, let me just point something out.

in the end, your Sherman Model is still a Sherman. Tigers are still Tigers and so forth and so forth. There are more then a dozen ways to get miniatures for your army. You do not have to buy the BF line. As has been said multiple times.


To Painting 15mm, I would recommend, if you do not already have one, is a magnifying device. A stand, a head set...something. IT will make 15mm 100 times easier. Small brushes then those that you would use for 25mm is the key as well. Then it just comes down to practice. There are plenty of painting guides out there and paint lists depending on the army you play. Once you get use to it, you will find it easier then 25mm in some respects!

I've never been able to paint with a magnifier. For me the fact that the magnifier also magnifies the size of the brush, it doesn't really help me much and I feel that I lose a lot of my brush control. Smaller brushes are a must, though.

15mm painting is pretty easy because the smaller the scale, the less detail you really need to put on the figures. Yeah some folks go insane with the detail, but it isn't necessary. Painting for each scale is like looking at a real person a distance away. The smaller the scale the further the "reference" person is away and the less detail you will make out when looking at them. Paint in the uniforms, the flesh, belts, straps and weapons and you really don't need to add much else. Also in smaller scales simpler wash and drybrush techniques work extremely well.

People who paint rank markings on their figs, especially german collar markings, in 15mm are just nuts...

Skriker

Just a couple more things.

1. Do not go for lists that seems 'supah-mega-awsum!!!!111'. Coming from GW, it may be tempting to make a list who's core is 5 Tiger tanks, since they're 'the bestest tank of Dubya Dubya II', right?

Nope. A list like that will get it's rear handed to it, whether it's ambushing anti-tank guns, tank-assault infantry, or Soviet tank/infantry swarms. FoW really favors 'combined arms' lists, which is something I really admire.

2. A few people and I mentioned alternate, cheaper models, as well as fielding Tank Companies for cheap armies, right? Well, The Plastic Soldier Company just released their plastic Shermans, which can be fielded with multiple turrets, so you can pick and choose between the more versatile 75mm, or the better AT 76mm gun.

That also means that you can now buy cheap, well made tank for each of the 4 main factions - Panzer IV H's for the Germans, T-34/76 or T-34/85 for the Soviets, and 75mm/76mm Shermans for the USA and UK. The boxsets are less than half the price of Battlefront's sets - meaning you can get 10 tanks, as opposed to 5 tanks, for only $50! That'll put you well on your way to a 1000, or even 1250 point list.

StuGs are also always in good standing and are across most of the war. Not as flashy as Panzer IVs but they can get the job done!