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Right , i could as the title says do with a bit of advice , I'm growing majorly tired and hacked off at constantly losing at nearly every (board ) game i play,I've played 40k for nearly 18 months now and won one game, and it's massively frustrating ,, so i was hoping that my fellow dakkanauts could give me some advice on some of the stuff i think i suck at and at the same time , provide a thread that others can look at and take advice from , the things i believe i could do with advice on :

Target prioritizing , advice on how to make sure your hitting the right unit with the right unit
General techniques which could improve my game
and what do in situations where things have gone badly , so damage control


Sorry if this sounds a but whiney and pathetic

Thanks a heap

'claw

Try this: http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-History-Warfare/dp/081331951X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1311538548&sr=8-4

Why don't you start by posting your army list and the plan that goes with it.

Scott-S6 wrote:Why don't you start by posting your army list and the plan that goes with it.

i don't have any 40k one's at the moment but would my warmachine 25pt khador suffice?

You've been playing 40K for 18 months and you don't have an army list?

You can post your warmachine army list, but I can't help you with specifics on that.

Ebutcher
Juggernaut
Spriggan

Doom Reavers
doom reavers
widomaker marksman ,

general strategy would be to rush in with the juggernaut and butcher and then when ebutcher roles good for focus pop his feat ,ravager and possibly ravager for an assassination run against the caster with the spriggan while using the doom reavers to tie down jacks and or unit while using the marksman against threats as and when required

How many games have you played with that exact list?

Also, can you elaborate on the not having a 40K list?

None as of yet , this is the last 40 list i wrote

Duke sliscus

4 kabalite trueborn 4 blasters

Venom Splinter cannon


5 kabalite warriors Blaster
Venom Splinter cannon

5 kabalite warriors Blaster
Venom Splinter cannon

9 kabalite warriors Blaster
Syrabite
Blast pistol
Raider Envenomed blade
Flickerfield

Ravager Flickerfield
Ravager Flickerfield

my plan for this was use the ravager in an anti vehicle role and the blaster weapons on other vehicle and unit for the same and use them against characters as well, take sliscus with the 9 kabalite warriors and take them against the most dangerous infantry unit ,probably the one with the hq in it , if hes being run within a unit.

I haven't used this list yet due to a lack of the models required but that would be my plan if i was.

I think it is useful to know the core principles of the military art and then look at how to apply these in your game system of choice.

For example:

Maintenance of the mission and aim -- Know what has to be done to win, and do it. In 40K scenarios based on objectives, killing enemy units will not win you the game, you have to capture objectives.

Concentration -- Make sure to be stronger than the enemy at the point where it counts.

Economy of force -- Don't "overkill" the enemy. It's wasting units you could use somewhere else.

You can learn a lot of this kind of thing from texts like historical texts like Sun Tzu, Tacitus, Miyamoto Musashi, Clausewitz, and from modern officer training manuals. There are also overviews which present a synopis of the historical literature.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Smithsonian-History-Warfare/dp/0060838531/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311539515&sr=1-5

I'll take a look at the art of war and then try and transfer what i gain from that into the game.

Sun Tzu'a art of war is fairly abstract and there is a lot about misdirection and psychological aspects of warfare which are irrelevant to 40K because of the way the rules work.

You should read a variety of texts and also some history (Thucydides, Xenophon, Caesar and of course modern authors) to get an idea of how thinking developed and was applied in different circumstances.

Cool , in game , whats the best thing to do when you manage to hold the objective or get enough kill points and then hold them as that was always a problem?

Possibly you are not employing economy of force, that is, you use too much firepower to get the objective too early, allowing the enemy time to come back and beat your depleted forces in turn five.

Kilkrazy, with all due respect, Sun Tzu never predicted Mat Ward, or winning games by rolling two 6s. All the military tactics in the world can't defeat that combo!

Blacklaw, I haven't won a game in about 7 months but at the end of the day it's just plastic doldiers, so nothing to worry about.

Focus your attention on one enemy unit per turn. Do everything you can to kill that unit while not being too shortsighted to see that it's just a red herring, like a monolith or possibly a land raider. Concentrate your fire, find the biggest threat, and either destroy or avoid it. A squad of Mega Armored Nobz is a terrifying hammer unit, but you can just kite them with mobile units - something which, as a Dark Eldar player, you should have no issue with.

The army lists you posted are different than what you have in your sig.

I would suggest that you stick with one thing until you learn to play with it.

blackclaw1 wrote:Ebutcher
Juggernaut
Spriggan

Doom Reavers
doom reavers
widomaker marksman ,

general strategy would be to rush in with the juggernaut and butcher and then when ebutcher roles good for focus pop his feat ,ravager and possibly ravager for an assassination run against the caster with the spriggan while using the doom reavers to tie down jacks and or unit while using the marksman against threats as and when required

eButcher tier lists don't really reach critical mass at sub-50 pt levels. You can try to make it work, but with variable focus and a general vulnerability to being shot to death, I would say that you need to be better-than-average to win regularly.

Try swapping eButcher for pVlad. Wind Wall will protect you from much of the shooting, and Vlad's feat will give you 14" threat with the Spriggan...16" if you cast Boundless Charge. Signs and portents is also a very powerful general buff spell that you can spam the crap out of to make the Doom Reavers into combat monsters.

If you're dead set on Butch, then Prime is going to serve you far better at lower point games. pButcher with War Dog and Iron Flesh while camping 5 focus is Def19/ARM23. Although there are feats/abilities that can kill him, in general that statline is immune to run-of-the-mill stuff. pButcher works very well with Berzerker warjacks because he doesn't have to give them any focus to run or charge, and he can make Kayazy Assassins absolutely terrifying with his feat and Fury. Kayazy go from base Mat6/P&S10 to Mat8/P&S15 with 3-4 damage dice with Feat, Fury, and Gang. A unit of Kayazy charging...anything means it's dead.

For your 40K list, I would try not using a special character to save points unless you have some sort of theme - I would add a unit of Wyches to take advantage of his poisons rule. How many points are you playing? You look like you could possible trade one of the ravagers out for something else. I wouldn't expect to see two land raiders/ multiple leman russ formations going against you at that point level.

Go for a generic archon and equip him out to serve a purpose - HtH. Get a unit of incubi to run with him. Use this unit to carve through elements of your enemy. I would drop a ravager and the unit that accompanies the archon and go for a unit of incubi and a unit of wyches in a raider if possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thought about it some more on my drive to work and this list would be fun to use:


HQ
1 Haemonculus, = (Venom Blade + Liquifier Gun)
1 Haemonculus, = (Venom Blade + Liquifier Gun)

3 Kabalite Trueborn, = Blaster x3
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

5 Kabalite Warriors, = 5 + 1 Blaster
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

5 Kabalite Warriors, = 5 + 1 Blaster
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

5 Kabalite Warriors, = 5 + 1 Blaster
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

8 Wyches, = (Haywire Grenades) + Hydra Gauntlets
1 Hekatrix, = (Haywire Grenades + Phantasm Grenade Launcher + Power Weapon)
1 Raider, = + Shock Prow + Torment Grenade Launchers + Enhanced Aethersails + Flickerfield

8 Wyches, = (Haywire Grenades) + Hydra Gauntlets
1 Hekatrix, = (Haywire Grenades + Phantasm Grenade Launcher + Power Weapon)
1 Raider, = + Shock Prow + Torment Grenade Launchers + Enhanced Aethersails + Flickerfield

1 Ravager, = + Torment Grenade Launchers + Night Shields + Flickerfield


Here is what I got:
12 splinter rifles (no rerolls)
5 dark lances
6 blasters
18 haywire nades
8 splinter cannons
2 flamer template weapons

My army while only has 24 shots of splinter rifles and no rerolls, there is a blaster to make sure nobs or power goes down. 8 splinter cannons that are 48 poison shots but keeps you out of assault range and allows the venoms to continue to move at 12 and fire to full effect. If you have to use blasters, then move at 6 and if the enemy assaults the vehicle, punish him with 2 templates.

Yes my list uses less poison shots but has more Lances to counter things like vehicles. But I have far more shots that are well outside of the assault ranges of most armies. By the way as I'm not sure how large your games are but this list comes in around 1,250 points.

I hope this helps.

sourclams wrote:

blackclaw1 wrote:Ebutcher
Juggernaut
Spriggan

Doom Reavers
doom reavers
widomaker marksman ,

general strategy would be to rush in with the juggernaut and butcher and then when ebutcher roles good for focus pop his feat ,ravager and possibly ravager for an assassination run against the caster with the spriggan while using the doom reavers to tie down jacks and or unit while using the marksman against threats as and when required

eButcher tier lists don't really reach critical mass at sub-50 pt levels. You can try to make it work, but with variable focus and a general vulnerability to being shot to death, I would say that you need to be better-than-average to win regularly.

Try swapping eButcher for pVlad. Wind Wall will protect you from much of the shooting, and Vlad's feat will give you 14" threat with the Spriggan...16" if you cast Boundless Charge. Signs and portents is also a very powerful general buff spell that you can spam the crap out of to make the Doom Reavers into combat monsters.

If you're dead set on Butch, then Prime is going to serve you far better at lower point games. pButcher with War Dog and Iron Flesh while camping 5 focus is Def19/ARM23. Although there are feats/abilities that can kill him, in general that statline is immune to run-of-the-mill stuff. pButcher works very well with Berzerker warjacks because he doesn't have to give them any focus to run or charge, and he can make Kayazy Assassins absolutely terrifying with his feat and Fury. Kayazy go from base Mat6/P&S10 to Mat8/P&S15 with 3-4 damage dice with Feat, Fury, and Gang. A unit of Kayazy charging...anything means it's dead.

i'm going to take the list with pvlad and drago instead of a spriggan thanks for that!

For your 40K list, I would try not using a special character to save points unless you have some sort of theme - I would add a unit of Wyches to take advantage of his poisons rule. How many points are you playing? You look like you could possible trade one of the ravagers out for something else. I wouldn't expect to see two land raiders/ multiple leman russ formations going against you at that point level.

Go for a generic archon and equip him out to serve a purpose - HtH. Get a unit of incubi to run with him. Use this unit to carve through elements of your enemy. I would drop a ravager and the unit that accompanies the archon and go for a unit of incubi and a unit of wyches in a raider if possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thought about it some more on my drive to work and this list would be fun to use:


HQ
1 Haemonculus, = (Venom Blade + Liquifier Gun)
1 Haemonculus, = (Venom Blade + Liquifier Gun)

3 Kabalite Trueborn, = Blaster x3
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

5 Kabalite Warriors, = 5 + 1 Blaster
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

5 Kabalite Warriors, = 5 + 1 Blaster
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

5 Kabalite Warriors, = 5 + 1 Blaster
1 Venom, = (base cost) + Splinter Cannon x2

8 Wyches, = (Haywire Grenades) + Hydra Gauntlets
1 Hekatrix, = (Haywire Grenades + Phantasm Grenade Launcher + Power Weapon)
1 Raider, = + Shock Prow + Torment Grenade Launchers + Enhanced Aethersails + Flickerfield

8 Wyches, = (Haywire Grenades) + Hydra Gauntlets
1 Hekatrix, = (Haywire Grenades + Phantasm Grenade Launcher + Power Weapon)
1 Raider, = + Shock Prow + Torment Grenade Launchers + Enhanced Aethersails + Flickerfield

1 Ravager, = + Torment Grenade Launchers + Night Shields + Flickerfield


Here is what I got:
12 splinter rifles (no rerolls)
5 dark lances
6 blasters
18 haywire nades
8 splinter cannons
2 flamer template weapons

My army while only has 24 shots of splinter rifles and no rerolls, there is a blaster to make sure nobs or power goes down. 8 splinter cannons that are 48 poison shots but keeps you out of assault range and allows the venoms to continue to move at 12 and fire to full effect. If you have to use blasters, then move at 6 and if the enemy assaults the vehicle, punish him with 2 templates.

Yes my list uses less poison shots but has more Lances to counter things like vehicles. But I have far more shots that are well outside of the assault ranges of most armies. By the way as I'm not sure how large your games are but this list comes in around 1,250 points.

I hope this helps.

i'll take a look into this list , thanks for the advice everyone , i'll take it into account and hoepfully have some more success in future.

Thanks guys

blackclaw1 wrote:i'm going to take the list with pvlad and drago instead of a spriggan thanks for that!

I'd drop the Juggernaut before I took the Spriggan out of it; Reach+Bulldoze with pVlad's feat is very powerful for assassination vectors.

Losing Butcher's +1 Warjack point and upgrading the Juggernaut to Drago costs a total of 2 points.

Drop the 2nd Doom Reaver unit (-6 pts, so 4 left) and add the Doom Reaver Unit Attachment (silence, Tough) for 2 pts (2 left). With your remaining 2 pts you could drop the Marksman and buy a full Widowmaker unit, or you could pick up any number of very good Khador or Mercenary solos like Manhunter, Gorman, Ragman, Kell Bailoch, etc.

Kilkrazy wrote:Sun Tzu'a art of war is fairly abstract and there is a lot about misdirection and psychological aspects of warfare which are irrelevant to 40K because of the way the rules work.

I must respectfully disagree with this. Sun Tzu's masterpiece provides a great deal of wisdom for the aspiring general no matter whether it is a wargame or the real thing.

To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.
TRANSLATION - Understand what the enemy has in his codex and you will have an advantage. Play a game with his army and you will understand even more.

One defends when his strength is inadaquate, he attacks when it is abundant.
TRANSLATION - If you have a weak unit, never attack with it unless it is supported. If you are in the strong position, ATTACK and do not waste the opportunity.

Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.
TRANSLATION - Never volunteer information ie what you have in reserve, what you are about to do next turn, and where your weaknesses lie. Keep your opponent guessing. Give him no advantage for free.

If you know your enemy and you know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle.
TRANSLATION - Study your own codex. Learn your strengths. Apply them in-game. The first step to winning any battle is designing your army list. Do not underestimate the importance of this step. Also study the enemy's codex. Anticipate his preferred strategies before you play and plan for them.

Any player can benefit from studying under the master.

Solorg wrote:
I must respectfully disagree with this. Sun Tzu's masterpiece provides a great deal of wisdom for the aspiring general no matter whether it is a wargame or the real thing.

To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.
TRANSLATION - Understand what the enemy has in his codex and you will have an advantage. Play a game with his army and you will understand even more.

One defends when his strength is inadaquate, he attacks when it is abundant.
TRANSLATION - If you have a weak unit, never attack with it unless it is supported. If you are in the strong position, ATTACK and do not waste the opportunity.

Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.
TRANSLATION - Never volunteer information ie what you have in reserve, what you are about to do next turn, and where your weaknesses lie. Keep your opponent guessing. Give him no advantage for free.

If you know your enemy and you know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle.
TRANSLATION - Study your own codex. Learn your strengths. Apply them in-game. The first step to winning any battle is designing your army list. Do not underestimate the importance of this step. Also study the enemy's codex. Anticipate his preferred strategies before you play and plan for them.

Any player can benefit from studying under the master.

True, but there is also a lot of stuff in there that doesn't really apply to wargaming, for the reasons Killkrazy mentioned. For example, the parts about the extended consequences of war, such as the parts about war-weariness among a population, the costs of rasing an army, etc.

I find it interesting that The Master (Clausewitz) was mentioned as well. My advice is not to go and try reading this without any kind of guide or interpretation. It is densely written, employing a complicated German philosophical writing style that was popular in the early 19th century but not so much now. As a result, it is easy to misinterpret what he means, not to mention trying to apply that to wargaming! Speaking of which, On War might not be the best source for another reason; Clausewitz was much more focused on the operational and strategic levels of warfare, rather than the tactical level which is what is portrayed in 40k.

The Dark Eldar are very similar to the Eldar in play styles - fragile troops with lots of movement. You need to dominate in the movement phase - get your troops into position to fire at full effect. You should not allow yourself to be charged and if you do, make them pay when you counter charge. Incubi will help get your list to 1500 points (and a cheap archon if need be). You Heavy Support unit with wings should help you get from 1500 - 2000 points as well as a beefy Archon and Talos or Cronos depending on the points. The list I gave you should work as a good base to start from. That should allow you to take hordes down (mass poison fire!) and the ravager and unit of true borns for a suicide team should take care of your enemy's armor. Just remember to KEEP MOVING AT ALL TIMES!

sourclams wrote:

blackclaw1 wrote:i'm going to take the list with pvlad and drago instead of a spriggan thanks for that!

I'd drop the Juggernaut before I took the Spriggan out of it; Reach+Bulldoze with pVlad's feat is very powerful for assassination vectors.

Losing Butcher's +1 Warjack point and upgrading the Juggernaut to Drago costs a total of 2 points.

Drop the 2nd Doom Reaver unit (-6 pts, so 4 left) and add the Doom Reaver Unit Attachment (silence, Tough) for 2 pts (2 left). With your remaining 2 pts you could drop the Marksman and buy a full Widowmaker unit, or you could pick up any number of very good Khador or Mercenary solos like Manhunter, Gorman, Ragman, Kell Bailoch, etc.

my new list is
pvlad
drago
spriggan
doom reavers , i might go for the ua not entirely sure
widomakers
and a marksman , for if i decide against the ua

thanks for the advice

Solorg wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Sun Tzu'a art of war is fairly abstract and there is a lot about misdirection and psychological aspects of warfare which are irrelevant to 40K because of the way the rules work.

I must respectfully disagree with this. Sun Tzu's masterpiece provides a great deal of wisdom for the aspiring general no matter whether it is a wargame or the real thing.

To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.
TRANSLATION - Understand what the enemy has in his codex and you will have an advantage. Play a game with his army and you will understand even more.

One defends when his strength is inadaquate, he attacks when it is abundant.
TRANSLATION - If you have a weak unit, never attack with it unless it is supported. If you are in the strong position, ATTACK and do not waste the opportunity.

Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.
TRANSLATION - Never volunteer information ie what you have in reserve, what you are about to do next turn, and where your weaknesses lie. Keep your opponent guessing. Give him no advantage for free.

If you know your enemy and you know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle.
TRANSLATION - Study your own codex. Learn your strengths. Apply them in-game. The first step to winning any battle is designing your army list. Do not underestimate the importance of this step. Also study the enemy's codex. Anticipate his preferred strategies before you play and plan for them.

Any player can benefit from studying under the master.

I didn't say Sun Tzu was irrelevant, I said there is a lot of psychology in there which is irrelevant to 40K. For example, leaving the enemy a bridge to escape. It's pointless in 40K because there aren't any morale rules of any significance. Whereas there are in other wargames.

blackclaw1 wrote:None as of yet , this is the last 40 list i wrote

blackclaw1 wrote:I haven't used this list yet due to a lack of the models required but that would be my plan if i was.

I would suggest that your first problem is too much chopping and changing. If you're constantly changing your list that makes it much harder both to learn to play and also to judge your performance.

Best thing you can do is to just learn the game, play with a list, go over it again and again, and revamp it for your own playstyle.

40K and Warmahordes are Apples and Oranges.

What works in one game, gets you owned in the other.

Stick with your army, learn it inside out, play , play, and play again, and relearn the ins and outs of your troops, not really relying on characters all that much.



Just my opinion.

I think with one of the biggest pitfalls people fall into with wargaming is getting caught up in the image and narrative of the game but not actaully thinking about the rules.

For instance while playing a game of 40k a few weeks ago my opponent made some remark about how he had "flanked" my army to witch I replied something along the line of "so what show me something in the rules where thats going to help you. (all footlist)

I then cheerfully jumped on his flanking force destroyed it and just hid the rest of my units for the rest of the game and won easily on points.

Why did I win because I have no illusions about the fact that its a game with its own set of rules and not a war simulator saying thing like "I anchored my flanks with some heavy armor" sounds very tactical but what does that mean In terms of game rules? The answer nothing.

Jubear wrote:
Why did I win because I have no illusions about the fact that its a game with its own set of rules and not a war simulator saying thing like "I anchored my flanks with some heavy armor" sounds very tactical but what does that mean In terms of game rules? The answer nothing.

I agree with this.

My advice would be, like Scott said, pick one game and stick with it. I was a 40k player for a couple of years before I started into Flames of War. I can tell you that both systems are similar in mechanics, but entirely different in actual play. If I had tried to play both at the same time while still learning, I'd never have had a chance to win. The same problem will occur whenever you mix two relatively different systems, especially those that are as different as 40k and Warmachine/Hordes.

If you're going to play 40k, focus on that single game. Learn overall strategies for that game (since I refuse to believe that 40k is in anyway 'tactical'). Pick a list at 1000 points, then go to 1250/1500/1750 with it. Slowly learn what works, what works with what, and what simply doesn't work. Think carefully before you drop/add anything to your list, since 40k is a game won and lost in the listbuilding phase.

Now, for Warmachine. Again, if you want to play it, stick with it and don't get distracted. Pick up a deck for your faction. Start at 15 points, then go to 25. Pick up a new Warcaster if you really want to. Find what units in your faction are 'toolbox' units, since they work great with a number of casters. Go up to 35 points. Again, find units that sync with each other. Learn how your warcaster works, what tactics they like to employ in game. Learn every single little 'dirty trick' you can find for them. When to expand to new warcasters, see what units work with them. A great thing about Warmachine/Hordes is that you'll only ever need a single copy of each unit, unless you're playing Tier Lists. This allows you, once you've really got a collection going (and if you can get a good amount of figures for relatively cheap somewhere) to swap units in and out, to see what works.

Jubear wrote:I think with one of the biggest pitfalls people fall into with wargaming is getting caught up in the image and narrative of the game but not actaully thinking about the rules.

For instance while playing a game of 40k a few weeks ago my opponent made some remark about how he had "flanked" my army to witch I replied something along the line of "so what show me something in the rules where thats going to help you. (all footlist)

I then cheerfully jumped on his flanking force destroyed it and just hid the rest of my units for the rest of the game and won easily on points.

... .

That is a good example of;

The strategy of the central position.
Concentration of force.
Maintenance of mission and aim.