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The one thing that always sort of crept in the back of my mind over the years is why no Nippon and Cathay? I mean Samurai, Monks, Ninjas, Elemental Magic, Oni, Dragons, and so forth, what is not to like? I am a huge kung fu and samurai movie buff, and I have trained martial arts off and on most of my life in several different arts. I know that the fluff says some of the Skaven clan spent time in these areas and that is how they learned their ninja-like skills.

However, I mean imagine a unit of Shaolin Monks, that wear no armor but say get a 5+ dodge save, lots of attacks, and then Samurai being the armored troops with martial weapons, ninjas being the scouts, and so forth. I think it would make a really cool army.

Any reason why GW never capitalized on this?

They're updated two army books in the past, what, 18 months? I don't think they could handle adding in two more armies.

I was thinking more of combining them into one...but yeah I hear you on that. I just am curious why they never tapped into the kung fu, ninja, samurai thing, as I think it would be popular. I'd sell an existing army I have now to build one if they existed, even if they sucked, just because I love Kung Fu and Samurai stuff so much.

Seems like you could proxy one with Empire rules and units, but I hear ya. I wish they'd do the same for Araby or Kislev (Mainly Araby). There are a couple fan army books floating around by the guy who did this codex:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/29482726/Warhammer-Armies-Araby
but this and his Spaniard-equivalent army books are by far the best (The Nippon/Japanese one is freaking 30 or 40 pages of fluff. It's f-ing annoying... ), since the Nippon and Cathay are nearly identical at first glance.

Apparently GW doesn't realise if they sold a "Generic Human" unit box, with bells and whistles to allow players to accesorize the guys to be whatever nationality/ethnicity they needed, they could get a lot more people into the hobby. Plus, even if the box was $40 or so, you'd get enough bitz to last half a lifetime, and WHFB would suddenly appeal to people who don't want to play "Generic Western European" humans...

Maybe they'll add a bit more of the Mongolian theme to the Ogre Kingdoms in the next army book.

If that works out then hopefully they'll add more Oriental Themes to the game.

If so, I'd hope they allow for (limited) use of the little goblin-like thingys that they have as the ninja fill-ins. Maybe make them sorta like fanatics or assasins, in that they don't show up till the enemy engages in CC, and then they hit an enemy with d6 S4 or 5 poisoned attacks or something. Dunno, just a thought.

I think GW just never got around to supporting Kislev, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, Nippon, Cathay, and Ind because they figured that for the most part the Empire and Brettonian rules could be used to accurately represent the rules effects of these armies on the tabletop. The only tricky part is coming up with the minis. Basically:

Kiselv,Tilea, Araby, and Nippon are all effectively Empire analogues.

Estalia and Cathay are effectively Brettonian analogues.

I know next to nothing about Ind, so I won't comment on it. But you can pretty much make a representative army of the rest of the human nations using the two we already have. Some of the finer points of each army (flying carpet units and elephants from araby, etc.) won't be exact/present, but for the most part you can do it.

Well back in the day when the Legend of the 5 Rings miniature war game came out I was into it, but it never really took off. I think it would add more flavor to the Tolkien cookie-cutter fantasy world of western humans, orcs, elves, and daemons. I read the fan written Cathay book when I got back into war gaming last winter, along with the Valhalla one too, which would also be awesome. I would also totally run a giant army of Vikings with hammers like Thor and Spears like Odin, but GW doesn't want to capitalize on this.

I just really would like to see an army book of both Cathay and Nippon (call it the Jade Empire or something...) with units that consist of Ninja, Samurai, Shaolin Monks, Oni, Kung Fu masters with long gray beards that scoff at their enemies doing Tiger/Crane!

I think it could be done right as well. I see them as a mobile, high initiative, fast, light to no armor army with lots of attacks since they practice the martial arts. Monks wouldn't wear armor but may practice iron body, or fancy foot work that could give them a dodge save. There could be different stances and styles too. A unit of Shaolin Monks could use horse stance or tai chi one turn to gain defense bonuses at the sacrifice to offense, or use something like Crane to gain offense but sacrifice defense. The samurai could be awesome in duels, after all they train a lot of one vs one, their magic could be elemental based, and perhaps even spirit based (from their mythos).

I think it is a great opportunity to create a unique army in the fantasy war gaming world that really isn't being done at all. Then again, I am sort of a fan boy I suppose with my kung fu and samurai film love. I mean if they made a blind swordsman, I would totally convert the model into Zatoichi....

Oh, I think it'd be massively cool to have Norsca, Kislev, Nippon, Araby, etc as fully realized armies in the game, I just don't think it'll ever happen because they've already got something like 15 armies each in WHFB and 40K, which they seem to update approximately whenever they damn well please.

In fact, didn't they have Kislev rules in WD in 5th ed or something? And weren't Dogs of War essentially all Tilean and Estalians? They also did Araby in Warmaster, but well... lolspecialistgames.

RatBot wrote:Oh, I think it'd be massively cool to have Norsca, Kislev, Nippon, Arabay, etc as fully realized armies in the game, I just don't think it'll ever happen because they've already got something like 15 armies each in WHFB and 40K, which they seem to update approximately whenever they damn well please.

well, to be honest, the fluff is probably already written, all they would need to do is create the army list, points and stats/rules/magic. Though I hear ya, GW after all in the grand scheme of things is sort of a small company when it comes to actual content creation.

I just want my Ninjas, OK? On a side note, I totally started an Ogre army because of the Ogre Ninja Maneater model, and I am going to paint them Asian style and hopefully give them Yakuza-like tattoos. I just got it though and have so much more ahead of me to paint. Once I finish my Lizardmen, they are next.

Though I hear ya, GW after all in the grand scheme of things is sort of a small company when it comes to actual content creation.

If I was drinking something, it'd be all over my screen right now. Much as I don't like GW, I don't think any other miniature company has anything close to the same range of factions and rules that GW does.

In fact, my comment was intended to be critical of them. They're the biggest player in the tabletop wargaming scene, but they don't seem to be able to keep all their armies up to date with any regularity despite the resources at their disposal which are surely the envy of any other design studio in the industry. It took them more than 10 years to update the Dark Eldar, the Necrons are approaching that, and the books for Wood Elves and Brettonians are something like seven or eight years old too.

RatBot wrote:

Though I hear ya, GW after all in the grand scheme of things is sort of a small company when it comes to actual content creation.

If I was drinking something, it'd be all over my screen right now. Much as I don't like GW, I don't think any other miniature company has anything close to the same range of factions and rules that GW does.

In fact, my comment was intended to be critical of them. They're the biggest player in the tabletop wargaming scene, but they don't seem to be able to keep all their armies up to date with any regularity despite the resources at their disposal which are surely the envy of any other design studio in the industry. It took them more than 10 years to update the Dark Eldar, the Necrons are approaching that, and the books for Wood Elves and Brettonians are something like seven or eight years old too.

While their fluff and stories are some of the best, and most quantity, the gaming content is heavily lacking. I have played many other better systems in the past that could knock out whole new revisions and army books way more consistently than GW.

I think their biggest advantage, is they have always had some of the best looking miniatures.

You want Araby from GW? Here ya go:



You want Nippon from GW? Here ya go:

chaos0xomega wrote:I think GW just never got around to supporting Kislev, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, Nippon, Cathay, and Ind because they figured that for the most part the Empire and Brettonian rules could be used to accurately represent the rules effects of these armies on the tabletop. The only tricky part is coming up with the minis. Basically:

Kiselv,Tilea, Araby, and Nippon are all effectively Empire analogues.

Estalia and Cathay are effectively Brettonian analogues.

I know next to nothing about Ind, so I won't comment on it. But you can pretty much make a representative army of the rest of the human nations using the two we already have. Some of the finer points of each army (flying carpet units and elephants from araby, etc.) won't be exact/present, but for the most part you can do it.

Not just that, but political correctness supposedly played a part in the decision to not explore them too deeply.

In society today, even the slight 'hint' of impropriety or inequality(even unintended) draws criticism. Look to the thread that came up recently about the prevalence of white men in 40k and the "only black men being portrayed as mutant freaks".

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:I think GW just never got around to supporting Kislev, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, Nippon, Cathay, and Ind because they figured that for the most part the Empire and Brettonian rules could be used to accurately represent the rules effects of these armies on the tabletop. The only tricky part is coming up with the minis. Basically:

Kiselv,Tilea, Araby, and Nippon are all effectively Empire analogues.

Estalia and Cathay are effectively Brettonian analogues.

I know next to nothing about Ind, so I won't comment on it. But you can pretty much make a representative army of the rest of the human nations using the two we already have. Some of the finer points of each army (flying carpet units and elephants from araby, etc.) won't be exact/present, but for the most part you can do it.

Not just that, but political correctness supposedly played a part in the decision to not explore them too deeply.

In society today, even the slight 'hint' of impropriety or inequality(even unintended) draws criticism. Look to the thread that came up recently about the prevalence of white men in 40k and the "only black men being portrayed as mutant freaks".

I had the whole squad from Predator in my IG army. I had Carl Weathers, Jesse the Body, Billy (the native American) and of course Arnold the European. My Necromunda gang had mixes of all races in it. My space marines are for the most part, white dudes though.

One day, I shall make a SM army with Assault Marines wielding katanas, flanked by lacquered land raiders and Oni dreadnoughts. One day...

Oh, well, yeah, their rules aren't the best, but that doesn't make them "small when it comes to content creation", it makes them the following:

1.)bad
2.)lazy no doubt due to complacency
3.)both

when it comes to content creation. In fact, that reinforces my point; they take their sweet ass time... and then put out mediocre products (though the Dark Eldar Codex was quite good, IMO, and the Orc and Goblin book seems to be decent. Can't speak to the Tomb King book since I've never seen it in action).

A company of their size, with their resources should be able to consistently release quality products in both fluff and content.

Crom wrote:Well back in the day when the Legend of the 5 Rings miniature war game came out I was into it, but it never really took off. I think it would add more flavor to the Tolkien cookie-cutter fantasy world of western humans, orcs, elves, and daemons. I read the fan written Cathay book when I got back into war gaming last winter, along with the Valhalla one too, which would also be awesome. I would also totally run a giant army of Vikings with hammers like Thor and Spears like Odin, but GW doesn't want to capitalize on this.

Its called warriors of chaos. To my knowledge (and according to the maps I have of the Warhammer World) there is no territory anywhere called Valhalla, which probably explains why GW doesn't do it. Norsca is pretty solidly a chaos territory.

As for Cathay and Nippon, you may be disappointed if GW ever does get around to them. While GW has established that they are 'oriental' themed cultures, etc. it is trying to move away from the perception of 'real world archetypes' mindset that dominated so heavily for such a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cathayan/Nipponese forces bare absolutely no resemblance to China/Japan in fighting style or appearance.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, Norsca is not wholly consumed by Chaos and there are some Norsemen who are at least not blatantly servants of the Dark Gods. There's also some Dwarf clans in Norsca that are more savage than the other Old World Dwarfs. It could be its own distinct army, and besides, GW could just retcon everything. They've done it before. You could try to represent a Norsca army with Warriors of Chaos but you'd be restricted to pretty much nothing but Marauders and Chaos hounds.

With GW's declared switch of policy to move back to it's roots as a figure manufacturer, and away from rules and specialist games, perhaps new armies will result.

Personally I'd rather have an Indus army... mmmmmm, Elephants....

Cathay would be good, especially if it had heavy chariots.

But I suspect one reason is that why would you buy a GW Samurai themed army, when you could buy the book and use the Perry's Samurai figures, or their Koreans for Cathay - and that is before you start shopping around for other historical alternatives.

darkPrince010 wrote:One day, I shall make a SM army with Assault Marines wielding katanas, flanked by lacquered land raiders and Oni dreadnoughts. One day...

do this and take pics please, haha

Why dont you just get a bunch of ninja models (im sure they are somewhere) and run them as high elves...monks as phoenix guard, whatever HE scouts are called as ninjas, princes as grand masters, dragons as you guessed it dragons, and at a stretch white lions as oni

Games Workshop has released a decent amount of Nippon figures in that past. And I believe even had a rule set for them once upon a time as well. As others have touched on, you can just buy Perry's Samurai line and use Empire rules for them. You can use some ogres and maybe some other Warhammer monsters as well, to give them a more fantasy feel. You could even maybe use some Skaven in the army.

When did GW do nippon models?

wouldn't Cathay and Nippon be better represented by Skaven? like, Storm Vermin would make good Samurai, heavy armour, WS equal to knights and a Halberd to represent those supposedly destructive Katanas. Samurai don't dual wield weapons or use shields so, yeah. plus you can use Queek Headtaker's (who is cool to begin with) and use his elite +1WS +1S Stormvermin, that my favorite representation anyway. Strength in Numbers could just represent the enormous armies of Cathay, Assasins for Ninjas (duh) and good initiative across the board.

all you're missing is Cavalry.

Lotet wrote:wouldn't Cathay and Nippon be better represented by Skaven? like, Storm Vermin would make good Samurai, heavy armour, WS equal to knights and a Halberd to represent those supposedly destructive Katanas. Samurai don't dual wield weapons or use shields so, yeah. plus you can use Queek Headtaker's (who is cool to begin with) and use his elite +1WS +1S Stormvermin, that my favorite representation anyway. Strength in Numbers could just represent the enormous armies of Cathay, Assasins for Ninjas (duh) and good initiative across the board.

all you're missing is Cavalry.

The Skaven really aren't a good representation of the culture for an eastern influenced army in WHFB. For one, the Skaven have little honor when it comes to saving face, where as a Samurai would very much rather die in combat than flee a coward.

I really don't want to play an Empire army.....I would rather have the feel and fluff of an actual army. I would really love block units of Monks that do unarmed combat. Posing each model in it's own unique kung fu stance. One doing Mantis, one doing Crane, one doing Choy Li Fut, one doing Tiger and Eagle claw, and so forth.

I think the Skaven are a unique race to the WHFB world, but I really don't think they truly represent what the Cathay and Nippon would be. I do think they should combine them both into one army book. I have just started an Ogre army since they have the feel and I can easily paint and model them to have Eastern culture influences. Plus, Ogres are just cool. However, I would still really like to have an army of monks, samurai, ninjas, kung fu masters, along with some eastern influenced creatures like Oni and the like.

I think on paper, this army would be a lot closer to the high elf book. Fast, lots of attacks, not a lot of armor, hence their rigorous training they endure.

They already have ton or armies to choose from and they continuously split their player base with new rules etc anyways.

Call be crazy but I prefer that they don't detail out every inch of the old world. Leaves more room for me to do what I want.

Falcone wrote:Games Workshop has released a decent amount of Nippon figures in that past. And I believe even had a rule set for them once upon a time as well.

The book Ravening Hordes (1987, WFB 2nd ed. I believe) has ten army lists in it, one of which is Nippon. Includes the following units:

Champions and Heroes
Magicians

Samurai Cavalry
Cavalry
Mounted Archers and Mounted Crossbows
Samurai
Warrior Monks
Ashigaru
Archers and Crossbowmen
Arquebusiers
Peasants
Ninja
Suicide Warriors
Cannons, Rocket Launchers, Stone Throwers

The next army book for 3rd edition, "Fantasy Armies", 1988, relegated Nippon to mercenaries. The 'Nippon Mercenary Contingent' has the following units:
1 Samurai Lord Mercenary Commander
0-1 Mercenary Ninja Assassin
0-60 Samurai
0-60 Ashigaru

GW made a nice range of Nipponese figs back in the day, but decided long ago to sideline it.

FearPeteySodes wrote:They already have ton or armies to choose from and they continuously split their player base with new rules etc anyways.

Call be crazy but I prefer that they don't detail out every inch of the old world. Leaves more room for me to do what I want.

This is the nature of GW. Look at Beastmen. Last 7th edition army book to come out and 8th edition just screws it up continuously. Look back at the Rogue Trader and 2nd edition days of 40K....they wrote so much cheese they had to create more cheese to balance out the cheese. This is always going to be a problem. They should really just work on their framework and get that down first, then writing in rule sets for specific armies would be easier and more balanced, but instead they don't do that. I mean look at the Dark Elf Army...it wasn't written with any kind of standard framework in mind.

I find that point to be moot in my opinion since it is a constant problem with GW games.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:When did GW do nippon models?

In the late 80s. Here are a few.

http://www.solegends.com/citjour87a/cj87ap36doh1ninja-01.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citjour86a/cj86ap28ohsamurai-01.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citc/c22niprocket.htm