gpfunk wrote:@ Kanluwen
Thank you for your input! I always enjoy a well presented, and vigorous argument. To simply say "Yeah, no its not" to my point that the Imperial Guard are very similar to the Russian war machine in WW2 would probably be short changing the issue. Just to point out some things. The manufacturing ability of the IG is vast and extensive. The Russians were as well! They could churn out cheap, and durable tanks faster than any other country that was currently in the war. Obviously, they ran into financial issues but given the Russian's abilities to produce standard, practical equipment I would say you'd be hard pressed not to find some similarities in that regard.
I didn't say there's no similarities. I said that to liken them to the Russians is a bit cheap. More on that in a second.
In terms of battle tactics. The Imperium of Man certainly doesn't always conduct its forces in a "professional" manner as though it was using "professional" soldiers. I would suffice it to say that it is not beyond the scope of Guard commanders to send hundreds of thousands to pointless deaths in an effort to choke the enemy with the sheer weight of corpses. The ridiculously large amount of men in the guard lead to a decreased value in the life of the average trooper. This means that they will be used in manners far from "professional." They will be thrown in massive waves at emplacements and the sheer might of numbers can be counted on to save the day.
And Commanders who behave like this usually don't stay in command for long.
Granted, not all units will be used in this way. Storm Troopers and other men with highly specialized training will be sent on more important missions with a higher chance of returning the investment, this I would agree with you on. But the generic trooper can always be counted on as cannon fodder. This is certainly in fluff.
Yeah...the Stormtroopers are actually the ones commonly used for suicide missions. They're highly motivated, highly trained, and they are heavily equipped to ensure that they can get in and destroy/kill the target.
The Russians used their men in the same fashion. Send that many bodies at an enemy and they are bound to break at some point. There is a reason the IG is called the hammer of the emperor.
Yes. Because they're the sledgehammer, unlike the Astartes which are the scalpel. The "send hundreds of thousands of men and tanks" is slowly becoming the rarity for Guard, while professionalism and motivation are becoming the standard in the fluff. There's a reason that Chenkov is talked about as a "tyrant". You don't use those words when it's the common standard.
Commissars. They are almost directly based on Russian Disciplinary Officers. Officers that were given free reign to punish insubordination and cowardice with death. They were responsible for the morale of the troops and were charged with doing anything within their power to keep the men in line. Why would the Russians need men like that to lead? Better yet, why would the imperial guard need a man like that to lead professional troops?
Commissars
don't lead. They're advisors to the commanders. Their job is to ensure the line holds, and in many cases they are brought in if the Regiment has Sanctioned Psykers attached since Commissars are trained to watch for any sign of corruption.
Because not every trooper is an elite, badass, super professional with nerves of steel and a DKoK attitude. Because of this, I don't think it too outlandish to question the professionalism of the IG as a whole. Not to say that their aren't professional, badass units like those in the guard. There are.
The problem is that those "professional, badass units" are the majority. The criminal scum who need constant monitoring are the minority, as are the newly founded regiments with no experience at all.
So those are just a few points that I hope i've explained adequately to try and draw the conclusion that the Russians and the Imperial Guard do indeed have similarities that you'd be hard pressed to shuffle under the rug.
And they have far more in common with the Wehrmacht, United States Army, etc. They're highly professional, highly trained, and equipped pretty admirably for a force that numbers in the billions.
The problem is simply that they are men.
On the matter of Close Combat. I was addressing the OP's query. He wanted a melee unit. He may have said CC but he meant melee unit. He brought up several times the idea of knife fighters, and samurai-esque units. And especially in the rules of 40K as we are talking about a unit that will be used in the game, CC means assault. Plain and simple. Swords and sticks, bayonets and rifle butts. So you'll forgive me if I assumed that when we were talking about CC we were talking about it in the sense of the game rules.
Then it's time
CC stops referring to swords and sticks. It's the biggest failing of
40k and it's one of the reasons that Tau have an issue.
And now to your tone. I'm not sure if you are a serious Guard fan or what, but I seem to have insulted you in some way. I apologize if my previous post seemed combative, but I did my best to present it in a neutral tone, in order to get my opinions across. If you thought that I was wrong in my views, instead of say coming back with an overtly hostile response you could consider replying in an explanatory way. Endeavoring to teach rather than to rage about people's lack of knowledge. I think there is far too much hostility in the world, and I think we should seek to remove as much unnecessary hostility from the world as possible -gets off soap box-
Once again, if I offended through brevity or tone, I apologize.
I have to explain this point almost every month in one form or another. If it comes across as hostile, it's because people refuse to learn or read anything outside of fluff that's years old.
There's a very important reason that Chenkov is referred to in the Guard Codex as a "tyrant".
@ Melissia
I can certainly conceive that basic guard training would include bayonet training, as our own military keeps up with the practice.
There's no "conceiving" about it. It's pretty standard in all descriptions of Imperial Guard.
Hence why I think adding an order that increased the damage a squad can bring in melee would be extremely effective at what the OP would want and wouldn't require any sort of unit revision or creation.
Or we can have the close combat rules reworked so that we can make it feasible for ranged armies to 'repel' incoming assaulters.
Then again, as you pointed out, why not simply give the IG an option to bring a "named" unit of guardsmen. It could be the Catachans, the DKoK, or as Kanluwen hinted at, some sort of scout force that specialized in taking enemies out silently. The Tanith First and Only come to mind immediately.
The Catachans aren't specialists in melee. Death Korps aren't either.
They just specialize in close range fighting. The Krieg forces, for example, train extensively in utilizing massed grenade tosses and volley fire inside of trenches to clear out their opposition.
The "taking out enemies silently" part is going to be difficult to represent on the tabletop.
