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I'm trying to put together a White Scars bike/terminator list. My goal is basically an ultra-mobile balanced force that brings its own cover. The Scout Bikes can turbo boost and make a screen in front of the heavier bikes to give them cover, and have cover themselves, and the Land Raiders are there to block LOS entirely for bikes behind them. Delivering the Terminators is just a bonus. But will it work?

[1500 point list]
205 HQ: Kor'sorro Khan +Bike
225 Troop: Space Marine Bike Squad x5 +Attack Bike with multimelta +meltagun +flamer +power sword +meltabombs
210 Troop: Space Marine Bike Squad x5 +Attack Bike with multimelta +meltagun +flamer +meltabombs
75 Fast: Scout Bike Squad x3 +meltabombs
75 Fast: Scout Bike Squad x3 +meltabombs
450 Elite: Assault Terminators x5 +Land Raider Redeemer +Multi-melta
260 Heavy: Land Raider Crusader +Multi-melta


[add 500 points to make a 2000 point list]
230 Elite: Terminators x5 +Cyclone Missile Launcher (Land Raider Crusader becomes their dedicated transport)
150 add 3x Space Marine Bikes to each squad (6 total)
20 add Cluster Mines to each Scout Bike Squad
100 HQ: Librarian +Force Dome +Null Zone

Bumping this to see if anyone's got any advice? Is White Scars the go-to for a bike list? Or does Ravenwing outclass it?

infinitekarma wrote:I'm trying to put together a White Scars bike/terminator list. My goal is basically an ultra-mobile balanced force that brings its own cover. The Scout Bikes can turbo boost and make a screen in front of the heavier bikes to give them cover, and have cover themselves, and the Land Raiders are there to block LOS entirely for bikes behind them. Delivering the Terminators is just a bonus. But will it work?

[1500 point list]
205 HQ: Kor'sorro Khan +Bike
225 Troop: Space Marine Bike Squad x5 +Attack Bike with multimelta +meltagun +flamer +power sword +meltabombs
210 Troop: Space Marine Bike Squad x5 +Attack Bike with multimelta +meltagun +flamer +meltabombs
75 Fast: Scout Bike Squad x3 +meltabombs
75 Fast: Scout Bike Squad x3 +meltabombs
450 Elite: Assault Terminators x5 +Land Raider Redeemer +Multi-melta
260 Heavy: Land Raider Crusader +Multi-melta


[add 500 points to make a 2000 point list]
230 Elite: Terminators x5 +Cyclone Missile Launcher (Land Raider Crusader becomes their dedicated transport)
150 add 3x Space Marine Bikes to each squad (6 total)
20 add Cluster Mines to each Scout Bike Squad
100 HQ: Librarian +Force Dome +Null Zone

Here are my suggestions.

1500 list
* Put the same special weapon on your bike squads. 1 MG and 1 flamer is not the way to go.
* Don't give bike squads powerswords. The seargents don't have an extra hand weapon, so they still only get 2 attacks. Instead give them a PF.
* If your adding a PF to bike squads, you don't need meltabombs
* You should bring 3 troop choices for 1500. Its to eady to clear your 12 troop models and you will not be able to win games without them.
* Drop your scout bikes. Their really only a 1 trick pony, and a meltabomb on the first turn is not all that great. It has ~25% of destroying most vehicles on turn 1. To make that gamble worth it, you would need to pop a vehicle more than 300 points in value with them -- of which there are none.
* Outflanking terminators in a redeemer is just scary. Its one of the best features of Kahn
* The crusader in your 1500 point list is really out of place. 2 LR in 1500 points is a lot, and limits your options elsewhere because their so damn expensive.

For a 2k list
* Your better adding another bike squad. Adding 3 bikes to each squad means you just have 2 troop choices in a 2k game -- and they will get tore up quickly. As mentioned, you cannot win objective games without troops, at best you can hope to tie.
* Give your librarian termi armor and stick him with your redeemer termis
* Speaking of termies, your non-assault ones really feel kind of out of place. They are not as awesome as assault termies when outflanking.
* 2 LRs in 2k points is still pushing it. It costs you a lot of other options -- like more bikes.

Overall suggestions
* After playing a bike army for years, I found this to be the best configuration for bikes, giving me the most in regards to firepower and bodies
- 2 MG/PG
- 1 MM attack bike
- PF on searg
- 6 models total
This gives me 7 wounds total to distribute, making them as resilient as a 10 man TAC squad. The firepower they can deliver is very good, and they are best used as 2 squads at a time -- ie, have 2 squads hit the same target together. I will bring 2 PG squads for every MG squad. I find that a PG/MM bike squad has a lot of options. They can deliver 5 shots that deny FNP, and still have good anti-tank.

* You need some ways to crack open transports. Instead of scout bikes, I would go with landspeeders. Since you can outflank them, making them the MM variety is very tempting. A 24" a MM is more effective than a LC at destroying AV 12 or lower, due to the AP1. Normally I suggest typhoons, but your case might be different.

* 2 land raiders is really a bit much. Any opponent who has enough melta will slag em quickly, and thats 1/3 to 1/4 of your army gone. The same goes with your 2nd group of termies. Thats 1k points invested into 2 squads, which makes your overall army very fragile. One bad round, and you just lost half your army.

* C:SM is the best bike army, and ravenwing still lacks. I don't use Kahn, but I can see where he is useful -- especially as the point values increase. Outflanking 2500 points is just scary.

* If this is your first army, be ready to have a steep learning curve. Bike armies are amazingly fast, and give you a lot of control of the flow of the game. However, a mistake can really cost you, as your bikes can get bogged down in assault, and until you learn the finesse, it can be a painful learning curve. The key with the bike army is to move is quickly and then bring your entire army onto a small part of your opponents. Then either keep striking his weak side, or move away so he can't hit you.

I've won many games by turbo-boosting for 6 turns -- usually against IG gun lines. I just keep moving back and forth taking advantage of a 3+ cover save, then I just push to objectives on turn 5. Its not a bloodbath of a game, but nets victories.

Hope that helps!

Is getting max-sized bike squads and combat squadding them not a viable option?

I'm thinking of moving the scout bikes to one 4-man squad. 4 bikes can surround a transport, and if they kill it, the squad inside with nowhere to go dies too.

Land speeders seem like a waste to me, they are super-fragile and the only target for a lot of mid-range AV fire I'd present.

I want the two land raiders for some redundancy, was my thought. Would putting a squad of CC scouts inside be worth it to make it scoring?

infinitekarma wrote:Is getting max-sized bike squads and combat squadding them not a viable option?

You see, the real weapons in a bike squad are listed below. These are the only weapons that can reliably hurt vehicles or kill MEQ. Given the meta change to high cost, low count models with FNP, these are the weapons you need to bring to bear.
* 2 Special weapons, ie PG or MM
* 1 MM
* 1 PF
In order to maximize this number of weapons, you don't want to max a squad and combat squad them up. You wind up paying for a lot of bolters that you don't need. By going with fewer squads you get more of the guns you need, and you ensure that all your bike squads have a LD of 9, which is much better than LD of 8 when it comes to break tests.

infinitekarma wrote:I'm thinking of moving the scout bikes to one 4-man squad. 4 bikes can surround a transport, and if they kill it, the squad inside with nowhere to go dies too.

That's a very cleaver idea. It forces an emergency disembark, which prevents the unit from doing anything on the next turn.
A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved. When the unit disembarks, each model is deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle’s access points, and within unit coherency. Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy. If any models cannot
disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an ‘emergency disembarkation’ – the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle’s hull,
Why use a scout squad to complete this? Why not a normal bike squad? You will ensure that your MM and MG are within 6" to vastly increase the chance of destruction.
While this trick will not work in every situation, due to the ease the surrournding squad can be assulted, its a very clever idea.

infinitekarma wrote:Land speeders seem like a waste to me, they are super-fragile and the only target for a lot of mid-range AV fire I'd present.

In Warhammer 40k, vehicles are incredibly resilient. Even a railgun (STR 10, AP1) fired from a broadside has less than a 50% to destroy AV 10. There is a reason everyone is using them, and its because they really do deliver.

Furthermore, few armies bring a lot of long range AT (Anti-Tank) so your AV 10 vehicle will survive quite a few rounds before its targeted by enemy fire. I will bring typhoons, which survive to later turns due to the lack of ranged AT that people bring. For example, a MM wont reach my typhoons, so it does not matter. While more armies today are bringing more of the 'right tools' to kill armor at range, there is still a huge mentality that 'melta is king' and people just don't bring much long range solutions.

Now, if your taking MM/HF speeders for the outflanking, then your making a bet that the speeder will destroy more than its worth in one round of firing. Normally I don't avocate this for non-vulcan lists, due to the cost-per-return ratio, but with your entire arrmy outflanking it is something to consider. Do you shoot your MM at the AV10 skimmer, or at the LR? Sheer target satiation will keep them alive for 2 turns, which is all they need to be worthwhile.

infinitekarma wrote:I want the two land raiders for some redundancy, was my thought. Would putting a squad of CC scouts inside be worth it to make it scoring?

Redundancy is not bad, but your paying a damn premium for it. One of those tanks could buy you rifleman dreads with points left over! I don't bring even one unless I'm fielding 2k points due to the sheer cost of them.

These are some images of my current 1750 list. I bring a librarian, a captain, 2 rifleman dreads, 2 preads, 2 typhoons, 2 MM bikes, a 3 squads of bikes. This list has done very well for me. If you want to play with termies, swap out some backline support for them, and maybe lose the MM bikes.

labmouse42 wrote:It forces an emergency disembark, which prevents the unit from doing anything on the next turn.

Actually emergency disembarkation says that the unit can't do anything else for the rest of that turn, which means that if you force them to emergency disembark on your turn, they act normally on your opponents turn.

TehCheator wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:It forces an emergency disembark, which prevents the unit from doing anything on the next turn.

Actually emergency disembarkation says that the unit can't do anything else for the rest of that turn, which means that if you force them to emergency disembark on your turn, they act normally on your opponents turn.

If the vehicle is completely surrounded, even emergency disembarking won't help. They still can't move within 1" of any of my models, which is guaranteed due to coherency rules. Destroyed vehicle = dead squad, not emergency disembarking.

I'm sticking with scouts because they are effectively a suicide squad, and saving the points over a real bike squad is helpful. Not to mention them infiltrating + scouting virtually guaranteeing they can assault a vehicle of their choice on turn 1 while still enjoying their 3+ cover save from a scout move turbo-boost. Between melta bombs and krak grenades there is a > 50% chance of destroying an AV 10 rear armor vehicle in one assault, and around 75% if they don't get assaulted and pulled off on the following turn, due to continuing the assault. And cluster mines seem like a lot of fun even if they aren't powergamey.

I was trying to keep the list a little fluffy by excluding Dreads, since the White Scars refuse to use them in the lore. I'll look at some switching to get a few Land Speeders in there too, but I really like starting with an LR on the table while still having one available to outflank with Assault terminators. If the big tanks end up being too much of a liability, I guess I'll have to reconsider.



205 HQ: Kor'sorro Khan +Bike
200 Troop: Space Marine Bike Squad x4 +Attack Bike with multimelta +flamer +flamer +power fist
215 Troop: Space Marine Bike Squad x4 +Attack Bike with multimelta +meltagun +plasma gun +power fist
75 Troop: Space Marine Scouts x5 (CCW/Pistol, in Land Raider)
105 Fast: Scout Bike Squad x4 +cluster mines +meltabombs
450 Elite: Assault Terminators x5 +Land Raider Redeemer +Multi-melta
250 Heavy: Land Raider Redeemer +Multi-melta

infinitekarma wrote:If the vehicle is completely surrounded, even emergency disembarking won't help. They still can't move within 1" of any of my models, which is guaranteed due to coherency rules. Destroyed vehicle = dead squad, not emergency disembarking.

Definitely, I was just pointing out that if you trigger an emergency disembark without killing the unit, unlike what labmouse said, it doesn't actually stop the opposing unit from doing anything in their own turn. Though this only works if you get a Wrecked and not Explodes result, so while it's definitely a useful tactic, it's situational.

I'm just spitballing now, but it seems like Vulkan would be another good addition to an army like this. Against some armies, the Khan's outflanking is really good, but with all the melta, flamer, and thunderhammer action here, Vulkan's chapter tactic could shine. Against something weak against CC like Tau, you call Khan the leader, but against something like Orks, Vulkan might be the wau to go.