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I posted this in my army list thread, but it really belongs here and I'm interested in getting some others thoughts on the subject.

Even in DoA lists, why do we take Honor Guard and Vanguard Veterans?

I don't mean to infringe on ToU, so let me know if this post is too detailed, but I think it's important to discuss points.

Assault Marine - 18 points each - WS4, A1, LD8
Honor Guard - 33 points each - WS4, A2, LD9, Come with a hidden priest, Locked at 5-man squads, Access to special and close-combat weapons
Vanguard Veterans - 33 points each - WS4, A2, LD9, Can charge when they arrive via Deep Strike, Access to close-combat weapons

For 15 more points per model, you're essentially gaining +1 attack and squad-wide LD9. 15 more points per model. Yes, Honor Guard can take up to 4 Melta per squad to ensure that vicious tank is dead. I rarely, if ever, see an opponent with one specific tank that must die above all else. When really thinking about it though, I can't tell you when 2 Meltas haven't gotten the job done. This is a thought widely echoed by a lot of the community. I've seen a lot of mention of taking Honor Guard with 4 Plasma or 2 Melta / 2 Plasma. For a mere 30 more points, 4 Melta Honor Guard can turn into a 10-man Assault Squad with 2 Meltas and a Power Fist (that can combat squad).

Vanguard Veterans pay an extreme premium to be able to charge when they land. Besides Long Fangs, how useful is this? I don't see a lot of Devastators. DakkaDreads won't penetrate your armor, even if the annoying Psybolt Ammo will mean you don't get FnP. Lootas can't get through your army or FnP. There are a lot of horde-type armies you won't want to use Heroic Intervention against. When you don't DoA with the squad, you're not even using Heroic Intervention. I've seen suggestions of "decking them out." A squad of 5 VVs with a Power Fist is already 175 points. A Storm Shield is 20 per model. Power Weapons and Power Fists run the normal rate for Sergeants. I'd rather just take 5 TH/SS Terminators. Sure, they scatter 2D6". However, they're paying a mere 45 points per model for a 2+/3++.

I must conclude that I don't feel Honor Guard or Vanguard Veterans are worth it. I think these points could be better spent on even more Assault Marines.

You have found where 3 Melta's in a squad is enough to kill any tank on the board. Congrats. I have found in numerious situations that 4 Melta guns are not enough to kill the one tank I needed killed. Or Dread for that matter.

Some people like to deep strike the honor guard in the back ranks, pop a tank, and then force the other guys army to turn around just to deal with it. Normal situation is they Deep Strike in, with 4 Melta's kill one tank dead. The opponent now has to either throw alot of fire power into them (anti-Infantry bounces due to FNP) or use anti-armor weapons. Either way the rest of your army is not being shot at.

Once you add JP and 4 Meltas the squad come in at 205. Most tanks average around 150pts and Landraiders are 250. Kill a landraider, and you made your points, kill a tank and you are close to even. Then you factor in the turn of shooting at the honor guard and not your Troops, or a turn your tanks are not taking fire, and thus allowed to shoot again next turn.

And lets say they kill a landraider. First they have made their points back and then some. But Landraiders are never alone. 95% of the time they have a unit inside. A unit that needs the transport, because it is slow, and does not want to get shot up. You have now exposed that unit to shooting from the rest of your army.

VV's, I normally don't run them. But that is because I don't have room for them.

I run them in my DoA list because they have a lot more capability than regular assault squads and also because of tradition. I used them in the PDF dex days where veteran assault marines were a staple even with mech lists. Veterans and Death Company were the best units in that codex.

Honor guard are another way to get FNP on the table and allow for concentrated firepower of whatever type you need. 4 meltas are good, but so are 4 flamers or 4 plasmas. I am leaning towards plasmas in future builds for the ability to put 8xS7 shots pretty much anywhere I want.

Vanguard are more expensive now, but they can still be kitted out to do anything you need. I like the heroic intervention ability because it gives you the option to drop and immediately eliminate or tie up units that threaten the rest of your army.

Well, it's hard to compare either to an Assault Marine, because they have different functions in a DoA list. Both the HG and VV can help you create buffer zones to drop safely and apply pressure at the same time.

Honor Guard first. You get a non IC Sanguinary Priest, which is awesome. You can also outfit this unit to do any number of things, and whichever thing you choose, it can be quite good at it. I like to run mine with either 4 Meltas or 4 Plasmas and use them to chase around scary MCs/tanks. I've used CC equipped ones before and they hit like a ton of bricks in combination with a Librarian/UR. These guys give you another Chalice (resilience for both them and nearby units) as well as an immediate high level threat to big guns/heavy infantry/MCs, which can help remove danger to your landing troops in a big way by removing the chance of an unwanted combat with some big critter, or silencing a pie plate/scary gun.

Vanguard Vets are a very high risk/high reward unit. I use them. I love them. I always take 2 units of 5 with 1 Powerfist (totals 175pts per unit). They are like guided missles, they land, point at something, and either kill it, damage it, or tie it up for long enough to deny it access to the bulk of my army for a turn. With my army wanting to land close, but unable to charge as it lands, these guys make roadblocks with CCs to help hinder my opponent from maneuvering himself into favorable charges against my stuff as well. These guys die a lot, and I'd recommend keeping them cheap. I think they quickly become very points inefficient once you start strapping on wargear. Vanguards basically are immediate threat, they can work on something that is hard to get to with short range guns (by making a risky drop and charging it), they can be used to restrict/control opposing movement/reactions to your drop, and they're ultimately expendable.

Normal Assault Marines struggle to accomplish these goals (or in the case of Vanguards, are simply not able to because they don't have the necessary rules). They help your Assault Marines stay protected and able to come into the game and be powerful once they are free to move the turn after they land. Neither unit is required in a DoA list by any means, but they're both certainly powerful tools that can create some strong tactical options for you.

Hold on just a minute - the points you have listed could use some clearing up.

If you are going to consider Honor Guard to be 33 points each, then each HG model has a jump pack and you are paying 33 points for a non-IC Sanguinary Priest with a jump pack. That's more than 40 points less than the cost of an Elite priest with a jump pack, and is one of the major benefits of Honor Guard units in addition to the flexibility of their kit. Seriously, a priest that can't be picked out by a Vindicare or singled out in melee is priceless. If you would like to divide the cost of an Honor Guard differently and pay 50 point for the priest, then the remaining 65 points split between 4 veterans works out to 16.25 points for a veteran. That's a screaming deal, even after you add the jump pack.

I am not a regular user of Vanguard Vets, but they have unique synergy with the Descent of Angels rule, esp considering BA can get locator beacons fairly easily and cheaply. This together with their extreme flexibility in terms of weapons carried makes them a specialist unit, to be sure.

HG and VV are specialist units. I don't think they should be compared to standard Assault Marines. HG and VV should be kitted out for a specific duty, not left to do the heavy lifting that Assault Marines typically do.

Dogstar34 wrote:Hold on just a minute - the points you have listed could use some clearing up.

If you are going to consider Honor Guard to be 33 points each, then each HG model has a jump pack and you are paying 33 points for a non-IC Sanguinary Priest with a jump pack. That's more than 40 points less than the cost of an Elite priest with a jump pack, and is one of the major benefits of Honor Guard units in addition to the flexibility of their kit. Seriously, a priest that can't be picked out by a Vindicare or singled out in melee is priceless. If you would like to divide the cost of an Honor Guard differently and pay 50 point for the priest, then the remaining 65 points split between 4 veterans works out to 16.25 points for a veteran. That's a screaming deal, even after you add the jump pack.

I am not a regular user of Vanguard Vets, but they have unique synergy with the Descent of Angels rule, esp considering BA can get locator beacons fairly easily and cheaply. This together with their extreme flexibility in terms of weapons carried makes them a specialist unit, to be sure.

HG and VV are specialist units. I don't think they should be compared to standard Assault Marines. HG and VV should be kitted out for a specific duty, not left to do the heavy lifting that Assault Marines typically do.

Vindicare can pick any model he wants to out of a crowd. Being in a squad won't save that priest.

Back on topic, When I played IG, VV would regularly make a mess of my mech parking lot, forcing me to spread annoyingly far apart to avoid multi-assaults from powerfists and meltabombs. By far the worst BA unit to play against with that army. Now that I play GK, veterans and honor guard are sad pandas because I have lots of warp quake and coteaz's "I've been expecting you" across my lines.

GK and DE are the 2 most popular armies at the moment, as far as I'm aware. short range deep strikers are terrible against GK for obvious reasons, and I think DE are just too fast to reliably cause any damage when your units do appear. Its something to consider at least.

I'm leaning towards starting with two squads of Honor Guard with 4 Meltas each and a squad of Vanguard Veterans with a Power Fist.

I thought the purpose of the Honor Guard was the Non-IC Sang Priest (and thus unable to be singled out with CC attacks) that came with them. The unit is a little pricy, I think I'd run it with 2 Meltas, Blood Champion and a Power Fist personally, to give it some flexibility.

Also important, I think anyway, is that it's a Sang Priest that's not in the Elite's slot, which frees it up for other things. I know that if I pick up Blood Angels, which I am considering, I'm pretty sure the list would be something along the lines of 3 Furioso Dreds with Frag Cannons, Meltaguns/Magna-Grapples in Drop Pods, 2 10 man Assault Squads in drop pods, 2 10 man normal assault squads, Baal Pred, (7 nasty flamer templates turn 1 hehehe) and cap it off with a Librarian and his Honor Guard. Guard is there pretty much to allow me at least a bit of Priest coverage, freeing up elite slots for Drop Dreds.

I've recently started a Night Lords army using the BA rules and I have to say that redundentcy is the BA's best weapon.

It's the same for a lot of armies: SW, DE, BA, even the humble Necron and Tau have units that most players spam to be successful.

4 Meltas are the way forward, just to make sure one of them hits and then kills.

I actually rate both the Vanguard and Honor Guard. Both will have a place in my army.

Going to add another point. DoA absolutely needs a flag in the middle of the army. Jump marines fall back too far whyen they fail morale tests, and ld8 on non sarge combat squads isn't reliable. The only 2 ways to have a flag is honor guard or sg.