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I am pretty new to 40k fluff, my only experience being the big rulebook, my CSM codex, and "Hunt For Voldorius" so I was wondering, some space marines, like the Ultramarines or Space wolves for example, were legions before the horus heresy. Now, post heresy, the orginization remains intact. Do they maintain their larger legion size numbers, or are they forced to maintain small numbers like the other chapters? Also, another unrelated question. Has a chapter ever come back from the dark side? as in gone renegade or turned to chaos, and then come back? I would assume not given the unforgiving nature of the IoM but I want to be sure.

Some chapters have rebelled and been accepted back into the Imperium, after a period of penance crusading. The Lamenters are one example. Chaos is a totally different matter though.

All chapters are supposed to have 1000 marines. The Wolves definitely have more (I think somewhere around 1500-2000), and the Black Templars totally ignore the limits and tell nosey Inquisitors to bugger off about it (10k+ marines there).

There's a Bolter and Chainsword article that ballparks the actual number of marines in a codex chapter at around 1200, once you count the number of marines in a company, then add in ship crews and vehicle pilots and drivers, plus some other misc. jobs.

The wolves have 13 great companies, each the size of a chapter (at least). The 13th chapter is MIA though, and has been since the heresy. so that's 12k easily. But most chapters follow the codex, meaning each chapter will only have 1000ish marines.
As for returning from the dark side, renegade maybe, Chaos no. Repenting from being a renegade will get you put onto a suicide mission for the chapter, survive and you're possibly forgiven. Chaos repenting otoh, you get the emperor's mercy, absolving you of your sins.

12.000 Space Marines WTF!!!
They are Legion in post heresy time... How the hell is Inquisition allow that to happened?

Brother Coa wrote:12.000 Space Marines WTF!!!
They are Legion in post heresy time... How the hell is Inquisition allow that to happened?

I think if the Inquisition started on the Wolves then there would be a lot of hassle, they are a first founding which lets them get away with a fair bit. Also they are possibly the only chapter that can't create successors, which possibly is another reason for their leniency.

12000 seems to be a bit to big a number though?

The Wolves aren't afraid of the Inquisition and Ragnar definitely has a bone to pick with them after the first Armageddon war.

Fenris is a hard mistress to conquer, Magnus failed and so did Bucharis and both had superior numbers.

The estimated numbers of the SW is well below 12,000. That each company is the size of a Chapter is incorrect, althoug it is hinted it is a bit above a codex company in size, that is, around 130-180 marines. Ragnar's Company is reputed to be the largest company (apart from that of the Great Wolf) and it accounts around 200 marines.

The company of the Great Wolf is the largest because it includes in his numbers all supernumerary assets like Rune Priests, Wolf Priests and Iron Priests along whit all aides and a pool of vehicles.

So in short, if we take the avergage of 160 marines per company with 12 Great Companies you have around 1900 battle brothers plus supernumeraries. I think around 1950-2000 marines in the Chapter. Well beyond the estimated 1200-1300 of a Codex chapter but way way below Legion size.

Edit: Ups, thanks purplefood. That happens when I write in a hurry and don't check before posting...

Raulmichile wrote:The estimated numbers of the SW is well beyond 12,000. That each company is the size of a Chapter is incorrect, althoug it is hinted it is a bit above a codex company in size, that is, around 130-180 marines. Ragnar's Company is reputed to be the largest company (apart from that of the Great Wolf) and it accounts around 200 marines.

The company of the Great Wolf is the largest because it includes in his numbers all supernumerary assets like Rune Priests, Wolf Priests and Iron Priests along whit all aides and a pool of vehicles.

So in short, if we take the avergage of 160 marines per company with 12 Great Companies you have around 1900 battle brothers plus supernumeraries. I think around 1950-2000 marines in the Chapter. Well beyond the estimated 1200-1300 of a Codex chapter but way way beyond Legion size.

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Brother Coa wrote:12.000 Space Marines WTF!!!
They are Legion in post heresy time... How the hell is Inquisition allow that to happened?

They aren't quite that big...
They are however deeply distrustful of outsiders in their space. They start shooting awfully quickly, IIRC they started a small war with the Ecclesiarchy because the Ecclesiarchy wanted to visit them and the SW weren't feeling receptive.

yea there are definatly more black templar than wolves... wolves are a large chapter but black templar are the only one even close to legion size. That said blakc templar also get alot of leniency and while thier numebrs are questioned given how farspread and how many crusades they run they need numbers

The wolves have gone up against the inqusition a few times, as well as the church. They've pretty much told them to shove it, we protect the imperium, we aren't ruled by it.
as for the numbers, you sure? I could have sworn they were actually still legion sized but got around it by making each company a chapter, but keeping the name. Technicially not enough to start a war but enough to say to Guillaman 'get stuffed'. I don't have my codex with me though. Can anyone confirm/deny?

CoI wrote:The wolves have gone up against the inqusition a few times, as well as the church.

And the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy, and millions of Guardsmen, and so on ...

Lynata wrote:

CoI wrote:The wolves have gone up against the inqusition a few times, as well as the church.

And the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy, and millions of Guardsmen, and so on ...

Hahaha So true. I want to see the day the run out of money and need to borrow some...

Being a little bit more serious, considering the friendly way they conduct their relations it is advisable to enlarge a bit the structure and amass a little more resources as in times of crisis not everybody will be glad to lend them a hand when needed.

is it wrong that i hoped this was a lightbulb joke?

Brother Coa wrote:12.000 Space Marines WTF!!!
They are Legion in post heresy time... How the hell is Inquisition allow that to happened?

why should they complain if they are using those numbers to kill witches, heretics, and the like for them before they have to investigate it?

Orkymike wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:12.000 Space Marines WTF!!!
They are Legion in post heresy time... How the hell is Inquisition allow that to happened?

why should they complain if they are using those numbers to kill witches, heretics, and the like for them before they have to investigate it?

Because they oppose the actions of the Inquisition whenever they find them, they could sue those numbers very effectively for their own agendas, and it's against the guidelines set down by the Codex Astartes.

iproxtaco wrote:Because they oppose the actions of the Inquisition whenever they find them, they could sue those numbers very effectively for their own agendas, and it's against the guidelines set down by the Codex Astartes.

Yes, well, what can the Inquisition do? Send the SoB after them? Nope, tried that. Exterminatus? Imperial Navy has nothing on the Wolves. Suddenly it makes sense as to why they just ignore them, even when it seems that the SW kill more Imperials than Chaos.

Lynata wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Because they oppose the actions of the Inquisition whenever they find them, they could use those numbers very effectively for their own agendas, and it's against the guidelines set down by the Codex Astartes.

Yes, well, what can the Inquisition do? Send the SoB after them? Nope, tried that. Exterminatus? Imperial Navy has nothing on the Wolves. Suddenly it makes sense as to why they just ignore them, even when it seems that the SW kill more Imperials than Chaos.

I was thinking more along the lines of crippling their infrastructure. Blockades, using the superior strength of the Navy, requisitioning their resources, recruiting another Chapter to help them out. Red Hunters, or the Exorcists, even the Grey Knights, or another Chapter that would disagree with the Wolves rebelliousness. With the might that the Inquisiton holds, the Space Wolves could be removed fairly easily. However, they don't really want to have to destroy an entire Chapter, a First Founding one at that, but they could cripple them to teach them a lesson without too much bother.

Well, blockades and the "superior" Imperial Navy did not work, Bucharis tried that for three years. Seeking support from another Marine Chapter with a similar plot armour could, though. Actually, don't the Wolves have any rivals amidst the Astartes? I vaguely recall having read a bit concerning some feud...

Still, I don't think we'll ever read something like that, which is a bummer. It just comes off as if any of these "slip-ups" remain without consequence. Even the Inquisition doesn't care. On the flip-side, I'm sure the list of incidents will grow even further. Oh well.

It is true that any given chapter has nothing to do vs the combined might of the Imperium, the thing is that although SW don't get along with the =I= and the Ecclesiarchy, they do have supporters in the Administratum and othre branches of the Imperium. Blockades should be successful but in a very very long run as it seems the SW get pretty much what they need form themselves and form Fenris so it is not so viable. The other issue to consider is that going against a First Founding Chapter may be a very bad Public Relations move and even inside the =I= not everybody would see this campaign as frutiful.

At least the Inquisition can brathe easy because the Wolves don't own a sector (like the sumrfs) and although they do sometimes come to blows with Imperial authorities they also are a very agressive and effective chapter against any threat in the Imperium.

My view is that as long as things don't get worse =I= should let it be as it provided the SW continue kikking bad guys' butts much more than Imperial ones. It is like dealing with the undisciplined child at school that 1) happens to be the son of the founder and 2) is very good at sports and defending his classmates.

Raulmichile wrote:

My view is that as long as things don't get worse =I= should let it be as it provided the SW continue kikking bad guys' butts much more than Imperial ones. It is like dealing with the undisciplined child at school that 1) happens to be the son of the founder and 2) is very good at sports and defending his classmates.

That pretty much sums up the wolves.

#1 - They have quite possibly the most respected Warlord of all of the SM chapters (Logan Grimnar). Each of the leaders of their Great Companies commands massive respect. Even if they don't have quite the reputation of Grimnar.

#2 - Laying siege to the Fang is just stupid. As its the home of a 1st founding chapter it is one of the most heavily fortified and defensible places in the Imperium of Man. Probably on par with Terra.

#3 - The last big clincher is that the Wolves do fight the enemies of the Imperium with a tremendous success record. They do it relentlessly. They defend their own, they defend yours, they defend the little man and big man alike. They do exactly what their Primarch promised the Emperor that they would do. Sure they tell the inquisition and church to stuff it and go about their own thing, but somehow show up where they are needed. Because they are loyal to the Emperor first, the promise of their Primarch second, to each other third, and the citizens of the Imperium fourth. Their loyalty to the Inquisition and Bureaucracy is much further down the line.

Yeah if you could get 4-5 other chapters to fully commit to wiping out the Wolves, the Wolves would go down. But see point #1, good luck getting 2 other chapters to commit let alone 4-5. Now see point #2, even if they got 4-5 other chapters the toll the Wolves would exact against those other chapters in their defense would be huge. The strength of the Imperium as a whole would end up compromised.

Lastly - for those who believe in Psychic fortelling and the threats of legend. No one knows if Leman Russ is alive or dead. He promised he would return at the end of days, the Wolftime. If the Wolves are about to get wiped out. Would Russ come back? What would the Inquisition and Church do? How would they answer to a living Primarch who, probably and rightfully so, would be a might bit pissed off?

Lynata wrote:Actually, don't the Wolves have any rivals amidst the Astartes? I vaguely recall having read a bit concerning some feud...

The Dark Angels.

Honestly, plot armour and the ability to Sue through anything is the only reason the Space Wolves have not been declared traitors.

They are obviously mutants, they have wiped out Ecclesiary ships for trying to find out if they are mutants, they have some weird pagan worship thing going on, which is obviously heresy, and they have rebelled against the Imperium multiple times, even killing Inquisitors.

There is no good reason Fenris has not been destroyed.

Void__Dragon wrote:There is no good reason Fenris has not been destroyed.

Could the location of Fenris (sorta between the EoT and Terra) be a reason. Perhaps the High Lords tolerate the state of things because Fenris could be an obstruction to a successful Black Crusade.

All space marines are mutants to a degree. And they wiped out ecclesiary ships for trying to illegally land in an area that they had no right to land in. The space marines don't answer to the Ecclesiarchy. They (in theory) don't actually answer to anyone. As for their worship, you mean them revering their primarch and the emperor as the greatest men to have ever lived, and their respect for those who came before? Or do you mean the worship the ignorant masses of those on the deathworld, who have gone 1 step further and actually deified them? No space marine chapter has ever done that before
Now for the rebelling against the Imperium... other than the killing of inquisitors (which technicially have little/no power over them) where's the rebellion? They protect the imperium and the people in it, and actually do rebel (almost) on several occasions when it looks like other's aren't doing the same. Almost going to war against the grey knights and UM on armageddon over what happened to the troops.

Jayden63 wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

My view is that as long as things don't get worse =I= should let it be as it provided the SW continue kikking bad guys' butts much more than Imperial ones. It is like dealing with the undisciplined child at school that 1) happens to be the son of the founder and 2) is very good at sports and defending his classmates.

That pretty much sums up the wolves.

#1 - They have quite possibly the most respected Warlord of all of the SM chapters (Logan Grimnar). Each of the leaders of their Great Companies commands massive respect. Even if they don't have quite the reputation of Grimnar.

Dante and Marenus Calgar would disagree. Both are more respected by the general populace than Grimnar.

#2 - Laying siege to the Fang is just stupid. As its the home of a 1st founding chapter it is one of the most heavily fortified and defensible places in the Imperium of Man. Probably on par with Terra.

That's just funny. Magnus, about 800 Thousand Sons, their small fleet and a few human soldiers took the Fang. It's NOTHING compared to Terra. To think Fenris is on par with Terra is just hilariously wrong.

#3 - The last big clincher is that the Wolves do fight the enemies of the Imperium with a tremendous success record. They do it relentlessly. They defend their own, they defend yours, they defend the little man and big man alike. They do exactly what their Primarch promised the Emperor that they would do. Sure they tell the inquisition and church to stuff it and go about their own thing, but somehow show up where they are needed. Because they are loyal to the Emperor first, the promise of their Primarch second, to each other third, and the citizens of the Imperium fourth. Their loyalty to the Inquisition and Bureaucracy is much further down the line.

This isn't different from any other Chapter, really, it's just that most others are able to get along with the other factions within the Imperium, and are thus more suited to their jobs.

Yeah if you could get 4-5 other chapters to fully commit to wiping out the Wolves, the Wolves would go down. But see point #1, good luck getting 2 other chapters to commit let alone 4-5. Now see point #2, even if they got 4-5 other chapters the toll the Wolves would exact against those other chapters in their defense would be huge. The strength of the Imperium as a whole would end up compromised.

Bombard them from the surface. Back up those Chapters with a few hundred thousand Imperial Guard. Yeah, it wouldn't exactly be that tough a fight.

Lastly - for those who believe in Psychic fortelling and the threats of legend. No one knows if Leman Russ is alive or dead. He promised he would return at the end of days, the Wolftime. If the Wolves are about to get wiped out. Would Russ come back? What would the Inquisition and Church do? How would they answer to a living Primarch who, probably and rightfully so, would be a might bit pissed off?

Rightly so from his own perspective. What would Russ do when Chapter Masters of other chapters started railing against him? What would he do against the power of the High Lords? He wouldn't have anywhere near the same amount of influence and resources that he had before.

Dante and Marenus Calgar would disagree. Both are more respected by the general populace than Grimnar.

Thet may differ but that's their business. It is reputed that Grimnar is one of the most respected military commanders or all the Imperium. It is stated since 3rd Ed. SW Codex. If Grimnar is not the most, surely he is not below them neither.

That's just funny. Magnus, about 800 Thousand Sons, their small fleet and a few human soldiers took the Fang. It's NOTHING compared to Terra. To think Fenris is on par with Terra is just hilariously wrong.

Magnus, 800 TS and aides vs the youngest 1/12 of the SW's total force (the other 11/12 were chasing phantoms elsewhere...) and they did not take it after several years of trying. Sure, Fenris is not on par with Terra BUT the Fang is considered the mightiest fortress outside Terra. (why the Imperium does't erect another such fortress in other hotter places in the Galaxy is beyond me).

Rightly so from his own perspective. What would Russ do when Chapter Masters of other chapters started railing against him? What would he do against the power of the High Lords? He wouldn't have anywhere near the same amount of influence and resources that he had before.

Maybe he alone could do nothing against the combined force of the High Lords but he shouldn't need to. Being a son of the Emperor should be enough credential to be considered seriously. Don't you think other Chapter Masters would not think twice when in front of a living Primarch? Besides, this last is pointless as there is no evidence of him returning after 10K years of being lost. It's discussing a theme assuming things based on assumptions as well.

Guys, there's 12,000 Space Wolves. Realistically, they shouldn't be able to take anything without support.
They're not that big.

So the Inquisition doesn't worry about them, but if they wanted they could quite easily take the Wolves down.
Edit: I just did a number crunch and for the Wolves to take an Earth-sized planet (land only, not including oceans for obvious reasons) each one would have to cover 12,411.666 km2.

TrollPie wrote:Guys, there's 12,000 Space Wolves. Realistically, they shouldn't be able to take anything without support.
They're not that big.

So the Inquisition doesn't worry about them, but if they wanted they could quite easily take the Wolves down.
Edit: I just did a number crunch and for the Wolves to take an Earth-sized planet (land only, not including oceans for obvious reasons) each one would have to cover 12,411.666 km2.

12,000 maybe in Crusade era. Now there are not more than 2,000

But we are not talking about the Wolves taking anything. Besides SM don't need to occupy or cover a planet completely to conquer it. They simply destroy the opponent's command structure. Ocupation is for Imperial Guard.

Raulmichile wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Guys, there's 12,000 Space Wolves. Realistically, they shouldn't be able to take anything without support.
They're not that big.

So the Inquisition doesn't worry about them, but if they wanted they could quite easily take the Wolves down.
Edit: I just did a number crunch and for the Wolves to take an Earth-sized planet (land only, not including oceans for obvious reasons) each one would have to cover 12,411.666 km2.

12,000 maybe in Crusade era. Now there are not more than 2,000

But we are not talking about the Wolves taking anything. Besides SM don't need to occupy or cover a planet completely to conquer it. They simply destroy the opponent's command structure. Ocupation is for Imperial Guard.

Let's be honest however, even that would take far more than 12,000 super soldiers for any realistic sized foe in any interstellar war to accomplish that against foes who may number in the millions, tens of millions or even hundreds of millions with overlapping and redundant C3 capabilities, though I agree that their numbers are probably closer to 2,000. Even with 12,000 and destroying an enemies command structure, it would still be extremely difficult to consolidate and cement a victory of just about any foe, making reorganization and counterattacks on the part of a foe rather easy. Same problem the Germans faced in WW2 on the eastern front, they just couldn't have troops (and especially mechanized & panzer troops) in enough places to counter the Red Army, even if they could hold or throw back the Red Army where they were opposed they would be forced to withdraw or be captured because they just couldn't cover enough ground.

Raulmichile wrote:

Dante and Marenus Calgar would disagree. Both are more respected by the general populace than Grimnar.

Thet may differ but that's their business. It is reputed that Grimnar is one of the most respected military commanders or all the Imperium. It is stated since 3rd Ed. SW Codex. If Grimnar is not the most, surely he is not below them neither.

Yeah, its a lot like asking who's more respected between Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa, or Gandhi. It really depends on who's fence the average man is sitting on.

That's just funny. Magnus, about 800 Thousand Sons, their small fleet and a few human soldiers took the Fang. It's NOTHING compared to Terra. To think Fenris is on par with Terra is just hilariously wrong.

The strength of Fenris, the strength of Terra. Its all rather like asking just how strong Wolverines regeneration ability is. It rather depends on the current writer. Fenris and the Fang have always traditionally been regarded as one of the hardest most forified locations in the Imperium. The numbers may change but the overlying concept has remained the same. You need to give the concept the respect it deserves. You couldn't just bomb the hell out of it, orbital and outer fringe defenses can be imagined that they are along par with the concept behind what it means to be one of the most fortified systems in the Imperium. After all this time, If it could easily be done, it probably would have been easily done. But that is part of the mystique behind the space marine. All of the chapters, not just SW. The men and the worlds they come from are just that awesome. Those lone 2000 men are more than equal to countless ordinary men and machines. Not millions, not billions, but countless numbers. That is the mystique behind the space marine, its what allows 40K background to actually work.

Rightly so from his own perspective. What would Russ do when Chapter Masters of other chapters started railing against him? What would he do against the power of the High Lords? He wouldn't have anywhere near the same amount of influence and resources that he had before.

Maybe he alone could do nothing against the combined force of the High Lords but he shouldn't need to. Being a son of the Emperor should be enough credential to be considered seriously. Don't you think other Chapter Masters would not think twice when in front of a living Primarch? Besides, this last is pointless as there is no evidence of him returning after 10K years of being lost. It's discussing a theme assuming things based on assumptions as well.

Its a lot like what who happen if Jesus suddenly showed up at the main doors to the Vatican. Russ (all the primarchs) are direct clones of the God Emperor. There is no way the High Lords of Terra would dare go against them. The idea that they could say No to any command given just would not process in their meager human brains. The Primarchs are the next closest thing to their God Emperor. They speak (in some cases literally) with his voice. Unless of course all the high lords are corrupt/tainted beuracrates, totally possible at this point. But public outrage if his presence was known to the general populace. Wow. Again, the Primarchs are the sons of GOD.


The same principles for saying how difficult it would be to wipe out the Wolves applies equally to all of the First Founding chapters. They all enjoy that living legend protection. They all are protected by by a power that just cannot be rationalized into numbers. I don't really care if the average player hates (incert name of marine chapter here) fluff. None of the chapters are going away anytime soon. The power of the 40K universe just wont allow it. So these men are as hard as they need to be, their home as defensible as necessary.

It has to be this way. Besides there are in total maybe what 100,000 total marines everywhere. A single Nid hive fleet contains how many bodies? An ork Waagh brings how many boys? The mystique of being a space marine has to bolster their powers. Of course the guard and their countless numbers help in the grand scheme of things, but its involving numbers that only our imagination and acceptance of Sci-fi fiction can process.