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This is just a question I'm putting to you as I still rack my brain over my first attempts at army lists for my Vanilla SM. Being that I still am learning it's a task which requires alot of questioning

The reason for the title is I'm running Imperial Fists so naturally I look to Lysander with his Terminator hammer time and with that comes a Land Raider to carry these chaps on there journey but then I realize 'oh dear I just spent 650 points on a HQ choice' which even I realize for a regular game is pretty ridiculous...

I do have another guy I built that I'm running with relic blade, storm shield and artificer armor aswell but even then I have 610 points worth.

I could teleport the Lysander squad in I guess? Using a drop pod locator beacon to help me but this does not help mobility.

I also have a Termi Libby with Storm Shield that I could use gate of infinity null zone for 140 points doing the same as I would Lysander i.e Locator Beacon him in with the Termies if thats allowed?

I can't tell you how many times I've gone through my list and thought change that and change that and then I post list on my blog or on forums and then I get all these other opinions that it really hurts your head a little....

If only I could stick anything I wanted in a viable list

I know you've said a 'regular' game but you haven't said what points value you're working towards. 650 is a lot is you're doing 2000 pts but not 5000 pts. It's an age old problem, you want what you can't really afford. I tend to leave big characters out of relatively small games as they cost so many points you never end up with enough troops. On the other hand try it out and if they crush your oppo then great!

@monkeyh Ah sorry I'm meaning in a regular game being 1500/1750/2000
kind of area. My problem is try to build something balanced or something that would work at that points level really.

I currently have to 10 man tac squads but am I right in thinking that is not enough troops?

If anyone is interested I can post up what I currently have and what I hope to purchase?

I do not think Lysander is worth his points cost, especially when you factor in a Land Raider. That's just my opinion.

Jimsolo wrote:I do not think Lysander is worth his points cost, especially when you factor in a Land Raider. That's just my opinion.

I think Lysander is definitely worth his points. The man's a wrecking ball, incredibly hard to kill, and gives your army some nice bonuses. He's not Mephiston, but I think he's priced fairly. I think it's alright if you build an army around him, but just throwing him into an army is a bad idea at an average sized game. At 1500 I wouldn't take the unit you're using as that's a lot of eggs in one fire magnet of a basket. At 2000 I could stomach it.

I would never take 2 HQs in a game under 2500. You will usually take 1 HQ that does a force multiplying effect and then spend the rest on the actual army.

at 2500 I could take a single names character and a support HQ like a Librarian(but keeping him relativly cheap)

In short, yes, even 300 point HQs are pushing it, 600 is not even viable. Theres no HQ in the whole game (excluding apoc) that even with every possible upgrade could actually be worth spending 600 points on.

Grey Templar wrote:I would never take 2 HQs in a game under 2500. You will usually take 1 HQ that does a force multiplying effect and then spend the rest on the actual army.

at 2500 I could take a single names character and a support HQ like a Librarian(but keeping him relativly cheap)

Mutiple HQ's aren't the problem multiple named HQ's are in my current wolf list I have 2 rune priests which come to 235 points for the pair, which is cheaper than the majority of special characters in the codex.

As for the Lysander issue I have never played with him but I have played against him in a drop pod and watched him and his squad get whittled down with torrents of fire until he just couldn't deal enough damage at the end.

I find the best place for Lysander is in a drop pod with some Sternguard.
A TH/SS unit doesn't need the extra punch, and can't use bolter drill.

Try him in a drop pod with a 10 man strenguard, with his bolter drill it becomes a very good unit and has once been last on the bord and won me the game,

GO IMPERIAL FISTS

Edit: Didnt see marv335's post

Ah yes I did think that myself actually. Sticking him in drop pod with sternguard and having a locator beacon on the drop pod to drop my Terminators in nearby seems a viable and cheap tactic.

And as said with bolter drill those special rounds will just be silly.

@marv335 you are right the THSS Terminators really don't need his assistance and having someone like Lysander soaking up wounds for the Sternguard while also being a beast in combat to protect them and also giving them bolter drill seems only right really.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

If your not black templar then yes, i would say so.

Consider also what you're up against. If you're fighting something like CSM's which are a similar points value you could be fairly evenly matched (obviously depending on exactly what your oppo picks) but if you're fighting something like Orks the danger is there will be so many of them (as they are dirt cheap) you'll be overwhelmed by numbers because you've used so much up on your pv on HQ.

RogalDorn69 wrote:Try him in a drop pod with a 10 man strenguard, with his bolter drill it becomes a very good unit and has once been last on the bord and won me the game,

GO IMPERIAL FISTS

Edit: Didnt see marv335's post

I played a game where I drop pod assaulted a 10 man sternguard squad and Lysander on turn 1 and wiped my opponent's big Tyranid Warriors squad out with one round of bolter drill and hellfire rounds. This was in the old 'nid codex, and this was just about the only synapse in his army. I felt kind of bad since I decapitated his army turn 1, but it was very thematic and cool.

Brother SRM wrote:

RogalDorn69 wrote:Try him in a drop pod with a 10 man strenguard, with his bolter drill it becomes a very good unit and has once been last on the bord and won me the game,

GO IMPERIAL FISTS

Edit: Didnt see marv335's post

I played a game where I drop pod assaulted a 10 man sternguard squad and Lysander on turn 1 and wiped my opponent's big Tyranid Warriors squad out with one round of bolter drill and hellfire rounds. This was in the old 'nid codex, and this was just about the only synapse in his army. I felt kind of bad since I decapitated his army turn 1, but it was very thematic and cool.

Ffrom what I can tell 10 man Sternguard is the preferred option for Lysander.

In a 1500 point game I think running Lysander with 10 man Sternguard in a Drop Pod would be pretty sweet. It would mean dropping the terminators in my army but it frees up space for other things.

Thanks

Grey Templar wrote:I would never take 2 HQs in a game under 2500....

I would, with Space Wolves. Some games I play 4.

Is 600 points ridiculous, probably, because troops win the game in 2/3rds of the scenarios not HQs. But point sink units are pretty good for the other 1/3rd KP missions... So you decided.

With Space Wolves I have done:

4 JOTWW rune priests in rhinos
2 Wolf Lords in Terminator armor: a chainfist bear saga and a lightning claw warrior saga and 2 rune priests
Ragnar Blackmane + 3 rune priests
Logan Grimnar, Njall Stormcaller
Ragnar Blackmane, Lucas the trickster, 2x Runepriest

Theres lots of SW lists with heavy HQs, it's kinda their thing, in other lists though,... well

Eldraad + Yriel, I ran that, but it's not 600 points, lol. In fact for it's points it's sometimes underwhelming in CC.

Of all the combos I listed this is probably the only one that actually qualifies as both 600+ and maybe workable:
2 Wolf Lords in Terminator armor: a chainfist bear saga and a lightning claw warrior saga and 2 rune priests

YMMV

Keep in mind that this 650pts is not just an HQ, it's an HQ, an Elites, and functionally an additional Heavy Support option.

In that regard, it's not quite so ridiculous, especially considering Lysander's ability to soak wounds for his already very hardy unit (in fact I'd consider Lysander the second most undercosted HQ in C:SM after Vulkan).

Grey Templar wrote:I would never take 2 HQs in a game under 2500. You will usually take 1 HQ that does a force multiplying effect and then spend the rest on the actual army.

at 2500 I could take a single names character and a support HQ like a Librarian(but keeping him relativly cheap)

Why not? 2 Daeomon Princes with Lash of Submission. Case in point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartan 117 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I would never take 2 HQs in a game under 2500. You will usually take 1 HQ that does a force multiplying effect and then spend the rest on the actual army.

at 2500 I could take a single names character and a support HQ like a Librarian(but keeping him relativly cheap)

Why not? 2 Daemon Princes with Lash of Submission. Case in point.