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Why do people run heavy weapon teams by themselves? It only takes 3 str 6 hits to wipe the whole squad out. At least as a platoon squad upgrade, you can get eight ablative wounds in there, and you have many more options to help them get orders through (comissar, vox, etc).

You could combined 2 or 3 squads together with heavy weapons so one order benefits them all, or keep them separate so you can hit multiple targets and your opponent consequently has to spread his fire out. A standalone heavy weapon team is a very vulnerable target and at Ld 7 its harder to get orders through unless you use a free order on them.

Because Heavy Weapons squads can't be combined... read the codex.

Alternatively, if you're arguing 'why take heavy weapons squads when you can take them in infantry squads', its because there is no worry of target confusion if you take heavy weapon squads. Think about it, you take a missile launcher or lascannons in a platoon, then you 1. cannot move if you want to fire that weapon and 2. are going to waste the rest of the shots in that squad/blob that are unable to handle enemy armor (I.E. most of the unit)

Chaos, your second part is what the OP was asking.

Also, I disagree with you.

I take Power gunline blobs(A heavy weapon in each squad, a long-range Special, a Commissar and Power weapons on the Commissar/Sgts) I use 2 20-man Blobs(well 19 models/blob), one has 2 Lascannons and plasmaguns, the other has 2 ACs and grenade launchers(I also have an alternate list with a 3rd AC/GL squad); At 48"-~18" I am shooting at enemy transports/Tanks(as are my Artillery, and other long range high S weaponry) under the bring it down order. When the enemy gets to within 18" I switch to FRF!SRF!, adding the high Str weapons to my Lasguns. When the enemy is within 12", I move and Charge them for 12 Power weapon attacks, or I will again FRF,SRF and let them charge me depending on whether or not they have Furious Charge, or are full on melee units.

The mix only costs 30-40 points(for the 3 or 4 Power weapons), which is nothing, and the heavies/Plasma still works out to be cheaper than the 3 T3, Ld7 heavy weapons.

Look at it this way:
If you normally play straight-gunline, You are already buying the heavies/Specials, and you should have learned after the first few games that a Commissar is still very necessary; 30-40 points is no big deal to add a power weapon on everyone that can take one.

If you normally play power Blobs with HWS; 3 lascannons already cost you 105 points, if you instead add them and upgrade your Flamers(assuming Flamers in the PB) to your blob, you are only adding 90 points, and increasing the Chance to successfully issue bring it Down by a full 25%(83.333% chance instead of 58.333% chance).

Also HWS have a good chance to lose the Whole Squad to a single Multi or Scatter laser(either through failing 3 saves, or losing 1-2 models and fleeing 41.666% of the time).

Short Summery: HWS are garbage, Power-Gun-lines are far superior in every way, power blobs are only good with a high saturation of long-rage AT in every other slot.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

HWS cost 25 points per ac compared to 60 per ac in a blob.

A lord commisar or ccs with a flag can help with the morale problems. A reroll from a flag changes the odds of a failed check from 41.6% to 17.4% and the ccs needs to be in 12" anyways.

They work best together so the regular squads can give the hws a cover save.

An interesting side effect of heavy weapons in the blob squads is that if you have the heavy weapon teams front and center in the unit, it makes it easier to get more guys into supporting attack range. Instead of measuring 2" from 1" infantry bases, you're measuring 2" from 2-3 60 mm bases. It's minor, but it's a little extra combat buff on top of the shooting utility.

Biophysical wrote:An interesting side effect of heavy weapons in the blob squads is that if you have the heavy weapon teams front and center in the unit, it makes it easier to get more guys into supporting attack range. Instead of measuring 2" from 1" infantry bases, you're measuring 2" from 2-3 60 mm bases. It's minor, but it's a little extra combat buff on top of the shooting utility.

I forgot to mention this benefit as well; it is very true and I do it all the time.

schadenfreude: The Flag only works for Morale and pinning so it does not help with receiving orders, and the Lord Commissar adds 70 points base to the HWS just to help keep them around and receiving orders, also another Slot.

Going back to your statement of a HWS AC being 25 points/gun vs the PIS 60, when you add the LC or CCS with the Flag it jumps to 48.333 points per gun and still dies some 3x as fast. For that matter paying slightly over 2x the cost for 3x the survivability sounds like a great deal to me.

Lord Commissar is not an added cost to the HWS. He is an army-level asset that should be smack in the middle of the gun line anyway, where he can keep them all ship-shape with his aura of command. His cost must be divided by the number of all squads that benefit from him. If you have 4x HWS and 3x big blobs, that is 7 squads that get Ld10, at the price of 10 pts per squad, which seems modest considering the cost of the squads.

I did not know that the aura worked for issuing orders as well - I thought only upgraded or attached commissars worked for that. If this is the case, the LC is even more valuable.

Yeah he works for orders as wellvery last line of the aura of discipline rule.

My question is how are you going to get 7 Squads into 6" radius from him? Generally a gunline is named such because that is the Shape of it, 1-3 lines of infantry with guns; most of which are offset by between 3-5" to avoid multi assaults removing too many units at once. If you have 7 Squads clustered around a LC, expect none of them to be firing as soon as I get some assault unit within range.

My whole point is that HWS die in an average of 3-4 shots, adding between 65-70 points base to keep them around for an extra shot or 2 at them is not helping. Adding 9 extra guys per HWT, and a Squad Commissar does help.

I am talking about actual survivability everyone else is talking about not running away from the first shot. not running away from the first shot is all well and good, so long as the next 2 shots don't kill your unit outright.

Do I need to run down the List of S6+ ap 5> weapons again?

Kommissar Kel wrote:
My whole point is that HWS die in an average of 3-4 shots, adding between 65-70 points base to keep them around for an extra shot or 2 at them is not helping. Adding 9 extra guys per HWT, and a Squad Commissar does help.

Do I need to run down the List of S6+ ap 5> weapons again?

Cover. 4+. Doubles the number of shots that must hit and wound to kill a base of HWT.

Not to mention if they are shooting at your HWT, they're not shooting at your tanks.

I don't see the side where the heavy weapon (certain ones) are even useful in the infantry squads. Any anti-tank shot will waste 8 lasguns per turn, possibly 16. Times that by all your units and you lose a fair ammount of firepower. Plus the heavy weapon costs more for the extra bodies. Thirdly, why do you need the extra bodies? The HWS should be taken with an intended target right from the offset. A lascannong HWS for example i'll use as an anti-transport unit. Once that unit is dead, anything else is a bonus. Yes, infantry squads keep the HWT's alive but the HWT in the infantry arn't worth keeping alive for the little they do. The only exception for me is the autocannon to sync with a special weapon and increase the sqauds range and flexibility or the heavy bolter to increase the squads overall firepower. These units need to be stationary to make them worthwhile. Preferably a gunline.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Biophysical wrote:An interesting side effect of heavy weapons in the blob squads is that if you have the heavy weapon teams front and center in the unit, it makes it easier to get more guys into supporting attack range. Instead of measuring 2" from 1" infantry bases, you're measuring 2" from 2-3 60 mm bases. It's minor, but it's a little extra combat buff on top of the shooting utility.

I forgot to mention this benefit as well; it is very true and I do it all the time.

schadenfreude: The Flag only works for Morale and pinning so it does not help with receiving orders, and the Lord Commissar adds 70 points base to the HWS just to help keep them around and receiving orders, also another Slot.

Going back to your statement of a HWS AC being 25 points/gun vs the PIS 60, when you add the LC or CCS with the Flag it jumps to 48.333 points per gun and still dies some 3x as fast. For that matter paying slightly over 2x the cost for 3x the survivability sounds like a great deal to me.

CCS are a great unit anyways that has orders, advisers, and remaining 3 special weapons if it takes a flag. An army buys a CCS to have a CCS, so I'm not going to add the cost to the points per AC, nor did I add the cost of power weapons, a commissar, special weapons, or the PCS to the cost of the infantry squad's AC.

I am aware the flag doesn't help with orders, but it does solve the morale issue of the HWS. It's far more important to pass a morale test than it is to pass orders. It also gives a rock solid leadership bubble to a large group of guardsmen including infantry squads, special weapon squads, and PCS. When it comes to passing a morale test Leadership 8 with a reroll>leadership 10, and leadership 7 with a reroll>leadership 9.

Deceiver wrote:I don't see the side where the heavy weapon (certain ones) are even useful in the infantry squads. Any anti-tank shot will waste 8 lasguns per turn, possibly 16. Times that by all your units and you lose a fair ammount of firepower. Plus the heavy weapon costs more for the extra bodies. Thirdly, why do you need the extra bodies? The HWS should be taken with an intended target right from the offset. A lascannong HWS for example i'll use as an anti-transport unit. Once that unit is dead, anything else is a bonus. Yes, infantry squads keep the HWT's alive but the HWT in the infantry arn't worth keeping alive for the little they do. The only exception for me is the autocannon to sync with a special weapon and increase the sqauds range and flexibility or the heavy bolter to increase the squads overall firepower. These units need to be stationary to make them worthwhile. Preferably a gunline.

While its true it might not be worth it to take a Lascannon in a blob squad, many of the other weapons do have utility. A Missile Launcher, for example, could use a frag round to contribute to the rest of the squad FRFSRF at 24" away. Mortars, heavy bolters, and autocannon also add many hits to an oncoming squad.

Me, I'd take autocannons and grenade launchers (or plasma guns if I'm feeling saucy) with a Comissar. That lets you pop transports and unloads a lot of shots on most infantry. I'd hide the PCS amongst the blob, armed with flamers. If they fired on the PCS they'd get a cover save. My strategy for these guys (running them in a chimera is also feasible here) is to have them rush forward when I know I'm about to be assaulted, unload as many flamer shots as possible. You could also run the squads individually and this is more flexible than a heavy weapons team because you could do stuff like this:

-Naked squad with lascannon, LC has lots of ablative wounds.
-Powerblob with heavy bolter, flamersGL, power weapon.
-All comers loadout with autocannon, plasmagun.

Honestly the main reason I'd take a Heavy Weapon team is for mortars, since you could keep them completely out of LOS to the enemy and on good hit on the first blast template means the other two will hit in the area as well. Its the cheapest option and you could spam mortar shots all game. Some of the other compositions get overshadowed by vehicles that could simply do the job better- For the same price, a Hydra has almost the same firepower as an autocannon HWT, twin-linked 100% of the time, with AV12 on the front.

I rechecked the LC again just now - it does account for receiving orders and the aura is indeed only 6 inches. I do not know why I always thought it was 12. Thankfully, I run him in a weird way (with ogryns in a chimera), so the only times his aura range was important, he was within 6 anyway.

Maybe one of the ways to do it is buy him a chimera. Then the range will be measured from the hull. To make it more cost-effective, it may make sense to stick one of the veteran squads to join the commissar. They can be equipped with 3 GL and 1 AC for a nice shooty bunker in the middle of the gun line. Maybe not very efficient, but it looks so fluffy!

Orders bubble is 12" for a CCS, and only the CCS can issue the order "Bring it down"

A PCS is good on foot, but it's amazing in a Chimera.

Jerjare wrote:

Deceiver wrote:I don't see the side where the heavy weapon (certain ones) are even useful in the infantry squads. Any anti-tank shot will waste 8 lasguns per turn, possibly 16. Times that by all your units and you lose a fair ammount of firepower. Plus the heavy weapon costs more for the extra bodies. Thirdly, why do you need the extra bodies? The HWS should be taken with an intended target right from the offset. A lascannong HWS for example i'll use as an anti-transport unit. Once that unit is dead, anything else is a bonus. Yes, infantry squads keep the HWT's alive but the HWT in the infantry arn't worth keeping alive for the little they do. The only exception for me is the autocannon to sync with a special weapon and increase the sqauds range and flexibility or the heavy bolter to increase the squads overall firepower. These units need to be stationary to make them worthwhile. Preferably a gunline.

While its true it might not be worth it to take a Lascannon in a blob squad, many of the other weapons do have utility. A Missile Launcher, for example, could use a frag round to contribute to the rest of the squad FRFSRF at 24" away. Mortars, heavy bolters, and autocannon also add many hits to an oncoming squad.

Me, I'd take autocannons and grenade launchers (or plasma guns if I'm feeling saucy) with a Comissar. That lets you pop transports and unloads a lot of shots on most infantry. I'd hide the PCS amongst the blob, armed with flamers. If they fired on the PCS they'd get a cover save. My strategy for these guys (running them in a chimera is also feasible here) is to have them rush forward when I know I'm about to be assaulted, unload as many flamer shots as possible. You could also run the squads individually and this is more flexible than a heavy weapons team because you could do stuff like this:

-Naked squad with lascannon, LC has lots of ablative wounds.
-Powerblob with heavy bolter, flamersGL, power weapon.
-All comers loadout with autocannon, plasmagun.

Honestly the main reason I'd take a Heavy Weapon team is for mortars, since you could keep them completely out of LOS to the enemy and on good hit on the first blast template means the other two will hit in the area as well. Its the cheapest option and you could spam mortar shots all game. Some of the other compositions get overshadowed by vehicles that could simply do the job better- For the same price, a Hydra has almost the same firepower as an autocannon HWT, twin-linked 100% of the time, with AV12 on the front.

Of those three load outs I can see some pretty bad flaws. With the lascannon, you're wasting 8 guardsman. Yes the lascannon gets lots of extra wounds but how effective is a single lascannon? Yeah it might get a lucky shot now and then but a twin linked hws would be far more effective, even though its not around as long.

The powerblob idea strikes me as a contridiction. Guard have cheap enough units to say 'i'm not going to pick between this or that, i'm going to pick this AND that!' Why tool a unit up with heavy weapons when it should be moving up the board in an aggressive manor and charging. The units main function renders heavy weapons useless. Of the few turns it can shoot (probably around 2) will it make a good enough effect to justify itself?

The all corners infantry has the same problem as the powerblob. The are enough points to get specialised units rather than a rounded squad. Having a well rounded army is essential to any all comers list but that doesn't mean the army has to be. It's best to pick a role for a unit and leave it to its main targets for best effect.

I used to run the AC/PL combo but i've come to my senses that this isn't an efficient unit. If i'm shooting at transports i'm wasting lots of lasguns. If i'm killing infantry, the AC/PL are overkill. By seperating them, I get concentrated anti infantry, kitted out plasma units and anti transport HWS. I find it gives me even more flexibility than having the same ammount of weapons spread out around my army. Let the powerblolbs handle combat, the heavy weapons sit at the rear providing fire support and the specials in dedicated vets units.

I think the ac is best for blobs. The gun is cheap, so if the blob moves forward to rapid fire the cost of the ac+ the cost of a lost flashlight=3 flashlights. Its not a huge loss if an ac has to shoot it's flashlight instead. An ac does however give a blob something to do at ranges of 24 to 48", and they work great against av11 or de.

I'll argue against the idea of super-specialized IG units. Yes, IG units are cheap enough that this is a reasonable option on paper, but on the board, where many units are very mobile, enemies deep strike and outflank, and terrain (in some environments) limits the ability of your static heavy weapons to engage to their full range, it is exceedingly useful to have multiple abilities in a single unit. Throw in the consideration that many specialized units make it very tough to win a kill points mission, and large units with many capabilities become very appealing.