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Extra Armor- This got a price jump in the last edition(s?) so I'm not really gonna knock it. Back in 3rd edition it was so cheap to take why not? Now in Mech-centric 5th edition they priced it high enough to really think about the vehicle you want to have it on (this applies to Space Marines too, which pay the same upgrade cost I believe).

Pintle Mounted weapons- Nice in theory, being Defensive weapons, but for what you pay, the vehicle itself could nearly have a much stronger weapon in the case of Leman Russ tanks. If it were 5 points cheaper, I could see it be taken on the Hellhound variants, since they could move 12", shoot their gun plus this (in the case of the Banewolf literally everything). But I don't see a few bolter/stubber shots a turn worth the point premium.

Hunter Killer Missile- Same problem. In Guard's case, this upgrade is even less worth it, because its BS3. Best use of this I can think of is if you had a squadron of Scout Sentinels outflank armed with MLs or LCs and unload an alpha strike on the turn they come in, trying to catch the side and rear armor of enemy tanks. But again, for what you pay, not worth a one-shot deal that only has a 50% of actually hitting.

Dozer Blade- This is one of those upgrades I think, "Does anyone actually take this?" Its rather situational, and for the points doesn't seem worth it. Chimeras are amphibious, but they don't have to pay +10 to be so; while you may not have them fording rivers much the fact that its free is nice. But dealing with difficult terrain is another matter, and you can still get yourself immobilized in spite of the upgrade!

Enclosed Crew Compartment- Since the Medusa is Direct Fire only, and the basilisk has a rediculous minimum range when firing indirectly, I can imagine that this might occasionally be worth taking. The only issue is that if something is shooting at your artillery, the artillery is probably doomed already. At least with open-topped transports there are rules that benefit the vehicle to balance the vulnerability, but the open-topped artillery are obviously meant to be kept protected by more agressive means than a few more metal plates on top. Again, for the price premium, it doesn't really seem that worth it, considering that these upgrades fairly quickly add up to a potentially additional unit.

Camo netting- Honestly I think this one is the worst for the price. Why? First, you have to be motionless for it to work, when many Guard vehicles work fine while moving (LRBTs have Lumbering Behemoth, Hellhounds are Fast, for example). Of course, the one type of vehicle you want sitting still (artillery) has to pay an additional premium on top of what other vehicles would pay! But the worst part is that the vehicle has to already be in cover for this to do anything. So you're lucky enough to be Hull Down, didn't move, yay you get to fire all your guns! And what's this? Your 4+ coversave is now a 3+ save! Good? Sure! But not for the points you pay!.

Are you complaining about IG vehicles? Why?

Pintle Heavy Stubbers are great for Chimeras. I get 9 shots out of my rolling bunkers before the squad inside fires.

I never use Extra armor. It only helps on a single roll on the chart. Basically it's a 6+ save to be able to move. Not worth the price of 2 1/2 Guardsmen.

I've been tempted to use cammo on my Manticores but always run out of points. They usually get priority when placing units in cover.

coolyo294 wrote:Are you complaining about IG vehicles? Why?

He doesn't like the point cost involved in making them more awesome.

Jerjare wrote:Extra Armor- This got a price jump in the last edition(s?) so I'm not really gonna knock it. Back in 3rd edition it was so cheap to take why not? Now in Mech-centric 5th edition they priced it high enough to really think about the vehicle you want to have it on (this applies to Space Marines too, which pay the same upgrade cost I believe).

The problem is that it's too expensive now. Even at 5pts under the old 4E vehicle rules, for IG it was seen as a dubious buy, for triple the number of points with half the utility, completely worthless. I can't recall any IG list that had EA on anything except a valk/vend that comes with it. With 5E, it tripled in price while being far less useful now that Pen's don't automatically also cause Stunned results as well.

Pintle Mounted weapons- Nice in theory, being Defensive weapons, but for what you pay, the vehicle itself could nearly have a much stronger weapon in the case of Leman Russ tanks. If it were 5 points cheaper, I could see it be taken on the Hellhound variants, since they could move 12", shoot their gun plus this (in the case of the Banewolf literally everything). But I don't see a few bolter/stubber shots a turn worth the point premium.

It's situational. On chimeras it's actually not a bad buy, but yeah, a tad expensive.

Hunter Killer Missile- Same problem. In Guard's case, this upgrade is even less worth it, because its BS3. Best use of this I can think of is if you had a squadron of Scout Sentinels outflank armed with MLs or LCs and unload an alpha strike on the turn they come in, trying to catch the side and rear armor of enemy tanks. But again, for what you pay, not worth a one-shot deal that only has a 50% of actually hitting.

These never have been good and likely never will be. At 5pts it might be worth thinking about, but 10, no way, no different from the last book.

Dozer Blade- This is one of those upgrades I think, "Does anyone actually take this?"

Nope, almost nobody. You might see it on a hellhound/variant but that's about it. the cost increase made no sense and is far too many points for what it does. They upped the cost because of its utility for squadroned vehicles, but even then it's still very overcosted and outright ludicrous for non-squadroned vehicles.

Enclosed Crew Compartment- Since the Medusa is Direct Fire only, and the basilisk has a rediculous minimum range when firing indirectly, I can imagine that this might occasionally be worth taking. The only issue is that if something is shooting at your artillery, the artillery is probably doomed already. At least with open-topped transports there are rules that benefit the vehicle to balance the vulnerability, but the open-topped artillery are obviously meant to be kept protected by more agressive means than a few more metal plates on top. Again, for the price premium, it doesn't really seem that worth it, considering that these upgrades fairly quickly add up to a potentially additional unit.

Just as expensive as last edition, just as worthless aside from *maybe* direct-fire medusas.

Camo netting- Honestly I think this one is the worst for the price. Why? First, you have to be motionless for it to work, when many Guard vehicles work fine while moving (LRBTs have Lumbering Behemoth, Hellhounds are Fast, for example). Of course, the one type of vehicle you want sitting still (artillery) has to pay an additional premium on top of what other vehicles would pay! But the worst part is that the vehicle has to already be in cover for this to do anything. So you're lucky enough to be Hull Down, didn't move, yay you get to fire all your guns! And what's this? Your 4+ coversave is now a 3+ save! Good? Sure! But not for the points you pay!.

You're not alone in this stance, I can't recall this ever having been taken by anyone even in non-competitive lists. It's far and away too expensive even in it's cheapest incarnation to be remotely worth it. Cut the cost by half, make it work even when moving, and you might see it used. Otherwise, totally worthless.

coolyo294 wrote:Are you complaining about IG vehicles? Why?

it's not the tanks, it's the upgrades.

,,they priced it high enough to really think about the vehicle you want to have it on"

Sounds like a good points cost ratio.

,,Back in 3rd edition it was so cheap to take why not?"

Sounds like a bad point costs ratio.

Just because bad game design results in better game balance doesn't make the design less bad.

The Chimera itself is undercosted, and having expensive upgrades limits it's utility a bit. It would still be better game design to have everything appropriately costed.

I'd think something like 60 Chimeras, with 5pt EA, 5pt Dozer, 5pt stubbers, and 5pt hunter killers.

Pintle mounted heavy stubbers are great for the amount of fire they put out. The mystery is why stormbolters cost the same when they mathhammer out to be worse at killing every single target, and have shorter range to go with their fewer shots.

Hunter killers are pretty okay on outflanking sentinel squadrons, and I can see someone putting one on a Chimera. I don't buy these for Marines though, since krak missiles do decidedly little with my luck.

Dozer blades are useful on Chimeras that will be driving up in the field. You have a 1 in 6 chance of immobilizing when you go through difficult terrain, so a bit of insurance is good. For something in the backfield there's no reason for it.

I only take extra armor on big expensive transports like Land Raiders and Battlewagons. There's no reason for it to be so pricey in the IG codex. Never use it.

Camo netting is a cool fluffy option but too expensive to take. Same deal with the enclosed crew compartment.

Simple solution, if you think they suck, run the tanks without upgrades, the tanks are awesome.

DeathReaper wrote:Simple solution, if you think they suck, run the tanks without upgrades, the tanks are awesome.

That's what the vast majority of people do.

I don't think I have a single upgrade on of of the tanks in my normal lists.

Which circles back to the point that no matter how good/powerful/awesome the rest of the IG book is, having overcosted vehicle upgrades is still mediocre game design.