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The only thread that I saw anywhere close to this topic is over a year old. So...

Medusas and Demolishers. Both sit in much coveted IG Heavy Support slots, and both more or less fulfill the same role (before any upgrades). There's undeniable advantages and disadvantages to both, but in the current tournament scene, is there a better one to take?

Both offer Str 10, AP 2 guns (again, prior to upgrades) and the same assortment of free hull mounted weapons. Both include options for more expensive hull mounted weapons, and the demolisher boasts available sponsons.

Medusas:
-36" Range
-AV 12/10/10
-30 points less than the Demolisher
-Bastion Breacher Shells

Medusas offer extended range for less, but is mounted on the chimera chassis. The can still move and shoot, allowing them to remain mobile and extend their effective range. This makes them formidable artillery pieces, but easier to neutralize than the demolisher. It even has the option for another 5 points to increase the range on its gun, deal AP 1 and 2d6 armor pen hits, with the loss of size of template. This makes them valuable tank hunters, but less effective infantry killers. They cannot fire both the hull weapon and main ordnance at the same time, even if it doesn't move.

Demolishers:
-24" Range
-AV 14/13/11
-More expensive than Medusa
-Lumbering Behemoth

Leman Russ Demolishers is the lumbering brute. It's shorter range means it's got to get closer for the kill. Despite its range, it's much tougher to kill. AV 14 on front and 13 on the sides means it'll take a lot of firepower to slow it down. Rear 11 makes it more difficult to damage in assault. The Demolisher can also move and shoot not only its main cannon, but the hull weapon as well.

Leaving upgrades such as other hull weapons, sponsons, and war gear out (Bastion Breacher Shells on the Medusa are fine), which one would you take and why?

In my experience, the deadliness of a demolisher cannon makes either vehicle a prime target. I use a demolisher, and it rarely if ever kills anything. What it does do is suck up at least 2 turns of enemy AT fire, as well as drawing the close range tank busters towards it. I havent used the medusa, but I feel like it will be destroyed the first chance your enemy gets thanks to its fragility and increased threat range.

Demolishers are nice because they force your opponents hand somewhat, makin them dedicate fire to bring it down. So to break it down, if youre only taking one, make it a demolisher. It will very rarely actually kill much, but it will free up your other artillery.

Speaking of which, what else are you taking? If you have a manticore, they may go for it first, making a medusa more viable. If you actually want to kill something with the S10 big blast, youre going to have to take more than one of either tank. Go with whatever fits your force, if you have russes then the demolisher will draw fire from them, and again if you have other artillery, go with the medusa.

lledwey wrote:
Speaking of which, what else are you taking? If you have a manticore, they may go for it first, making a medusa more viable. If you actually want to kill something with the S10 big blast, youre going to have to take more than one of either tank. Go with whatever fits your force, if you have russes then the demolisher will draw fire from them, and again if you have other artillery, go with the medusa.

Currently it's a mech list with 7 other chimeras. I'm asking because I'm debating between adding 2 demolishers to the list or 3 medusas. I have no manticores, and will not take them (different story though).

My big issue I ran into with playing a list with the 2 demolishers was that at least one would last until the end of the game, but I wasn't dropping enough templates to cripple units like termies. I've been leaning towards medusas more for my list, but I was curious to see what the community thinks.

IMO, Medusas are much better.

The Demolisher has Av14, but dark lances lower it to Av12 (same as chimera chasis on the front), while the PF and TH hit the back armor anyway. Also, its shorter range means you will get nice and close to enemy meltas, which will pop you rolling 2d6 at half range. So, Av14 is in practice much worse than it seems. With tanks, you want to keep your distance and bubble-wrap with infantry. The D's range makes that harder.

Medusas also have the BB shells which are equipment rather than replacement upgrade. The way I read the codex, this means each turn you get to choose to fire a regular shell or BB. That is very powerful and costs just 5 pts. Unless this was FAQed someplace as a replacement, don't ever let anybody tell you otherwise. Bring the codex with you and let them read it. It is always referred as equipment and nowhere does it say it replaces the primary ammo. The BB is great when you need some more AT, and has the 48" range as well.

I take medusas in squads of 2 (usually) or 3 (occasionally) and have been pleased with their performance. By contrast, trying to get closer with LR has usually resulted in CC or melta death, so short range is not your friend with tanks.

I'd say medusas. I've had horribly luck with my demolishers since 5th started, and my medusas have worked well, AND I can fit other things in with the points freed up. Plus that extra range works wonders, and you can always slap a heavy flamer on 'em if they don't get killed off by something. Here's a strategy to consider:

Have the medusas follow up behind your chimeras, the turret can easily "see" over the chimera for the purposes of firing, but (barring flank attacks) your opponent will not be able to see the hull of the medusa, and if he does you'll get hull down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and bastion breachers aren't so good:

IG Codex p. 53
"A Medusa armed with bastion breacher shells always fires using the following profile:..."

If its that kind of parking lot av12 list, definitely go with the medusae. I use 2 standard LRBTs in my list so the demolisher works there. Have you considered any hydras? A squadron of 2 of them along wih 2 medusae might give you some more versatility from your heavy slots, and add more AV12 saturation.

Also as far as bastion breacher shells go, I would say it is a waste for the same reason people dont take Vanquishers. One long range, fairly inaccurate anti tank shot is just not worth it, and the medusa is even less accurate unless you are shooing something huge.

They way I read Bastion Breachers was buy them and always fire with them, or don't buy them and don't.

AV 14 is lowered by lances, but more than likely I'm still getting 4+ from being obscured. I can usally hide them behind something. They have a much higher survival rate in hand to hand.

It's not so much a parking lot, as parking lots shortly turn into junkyards. I'm a big believer in moving my tanks, even if just a little. And no hydras, I've got their department covered.

The real concern is in the heavy infantry and tank bustin' department that both the medusa and demolisher bring to the table, and if either is actually better.

If you like to sit back and shoot, then the Medusa is a better option for you.

If you like to play agressive and move up with melta vets, then the Demolisher is right up your alley. This is because it can both help screen the Chimeras and support them as they move up.

It also depends on whether or not you field other Russes. With only one AV14 in an AV12 spam list, a lone Demolisher is begging to get hit with all of your opponents heavy AT weapons. If, however, you are running Russes in all your heavy slots, then your opponent has to choose where to put those shots a little more carefully.

Alerian wrote:If you like to sit back and shoot, then the Medusa is a better option for you.

If you like to play agressive and move up with melta vets, then the Demolisher is right up your alley. This is because it can both help screen the Chimeras and support them as they move up.

It also depends on whether or not you field other Russes. With only one AV14 in an AV12 spam list, a lone Demolisher is begging to get hit with all of your opponents heavy AT weapons. If, however, you are running Russes in all your heavy slots, then your opponent has to choose where to put those shots a little more carefully.

If you're playin just for it's armor, I'd argue the LRBT is the better way to go. The key thing against the LRD is its short range- melta guns are gonna pose a major threat to it and it's not gonna be in range for 1 or 2 turns. Plus, lumbering behemoth makes that first turn charge toward the lines kinda iffy for all LR's, and it's even more pronounced on the demolisher. If you try and compensate for short range with sponsons you're gonna have a major point sink.

In case it's not apparent, this is all colored by my experience. I run a mech guard, and have had much greater success with medusas than demolishers. I'm not gonna say demolishers can't work, but if you do em, you're gonna want redundancy like Alerian suggests.

Raythor wrote:

Alerian wrote:If you like to sit back and shoot, then the Medusa is a better option for you.

If you like to play agressive and move up with melta vets, then the Demolisher is right up your alley. This is because it can both help screen the Chimeras and support them as they move up.

It also depends on whether or not you field other Russes. With only one AV14 in an AV12 spam list, a lone Demolisher is begging to get hit with all of your opponents heavy AT weapons. If, however, you are running Russes in all your heavy slots, then your opponent has to choose where to put those shots a little more carefully.

If you're playin just for it's armor, I'd argue the LRBT is the better way to go. The key thing against the LRD is its short range- melta guns are gonna pose a major threat to it and it's not gonna be in range for 1 or 2 turns. Plus, lumbering behemoth makes that first turn charge toward the lines kinda iffy for all LR's, and it's even more pronounced on the demolisher. If you try and compensate for short range with sponsons you're gonna have a major point sink.

In case it's not apparent, this is all colored by my experience. I run a mech guard, and have had much greater success with medusas than demolishers. I'm not gonna say demolishers can't work, but if you do em, you're gonna want redundancy like Alerian suggests.

He is looking for S10, AP 2...that rules out the LRBT in this discussion.

That leaves the Medusa, for lists that like to sit back, or the Demolisher for a more aggressive playstyle.

It depends, when running power blobs or mechvets with short range guns like plasma and melta, the Demolisher really shines as it can support the infantry and tanks at it's optimal range (18-24") while itself being supported by the infantry or veterans dealing with things that may threaten the tank itself.

The Medusa however, is far more suited to a gunline style of play (while not being out of place in a mechanized list either), it is far easier to kill than the Russ, but it's also much more mobile as it lacks the Lumbering behemoth special rule. However, without the Enclosed Crew compartment and it's rather low range of 36", it's very vulnerable as it's such a high priority target.

However, the Medusa for me is better for a mech list, since you can park it between two chimeras forcing your opponent to either hit the front armour of 12, or kill the two chimeras to hit the side armour of 10 which makes it more annoying to kill. I'd personally go with two medusas in a mech list, and definitely take the enclosed crew compartment. I always take it on all my basilisks and medusas.

Don't forget also, that the Medusa Siege gun is Ordnance and not Ordnance (barrage) so you can still move 6" and shoot the main gun allowing you to keep up with your chimera wall.

I personally prefer the Demolisher, because even though AV14 can be negated, it's still AV11 rear armour and not open-topped. It's more durable, more manouevreable, and works well with other demolishers for people who love their Russes.

The Medusa has its role in arty lists that prefer a more stationary approach. That being said, it would be a lot better if it had an indirect fire mode (12"-48") as well, or could at least switch between bastion-breacher and regular shells.

My demolisher has never failed me in either drawing a disproportionate amount of enemy fire or in dealing significant damage to a deathstar (nobz, terminators).

I have fielded both a Medusa and a Demolisher several times, somtimes both in the same game. The Medusa performed better every time simply because of the increased range of the gun. When you factor in the range of the demolisher cannon, you need to think about that the most potent AT weapons almost always function at close range. Stuff like meltas and power fists will make a mess of a Demolisher even if it has AV 14/13/11, so the best way to stay alive is to keep your big guns at range. The Medusa fits better in a AV 12 heavy list, while the Demolisher will function better in a list with an even mix of blob squads and AV 14 tanks.

Alerian, I agree, the only reason I brougt the LRBT into the discussion was to say that it functions better as an AV14 fire magnet, if that's what you want. Cheaper, and doesn't need to get close to dangerous anti armor weapons like the demolisher needs to. IIRC from your own batreps, your LRD didn't fare too well in a lot of your games...

Get two Griffons instead maybe shave a point or two here and there i have watch many a army crumble over two griffons dropping reroll large blasts. But if this isnt the advice you were looking for then go Demolisher.This is my stick by they are just really damn tough when it comes down to it

I like the Lemon King. Rarely ever makes its points back at face value, but it draws fire like no other (because if the enemy doesn't kill it, it'll make its points back in a big way).

I think I'm agreeing with Blacksails and Alerian, that the demolisher is better for more agressive and movement oriented lists, while the medusas are better in a gun line.

The fact that the demolisher has lumbering behemoth means I'm dropping more firepower on those units close to it, and I should be moving to do it. That really helps it's survivability in that regard. Yes, you run the risk of melta and thunder hammers/powerfists being close to it, but most armies that want to pop your tanks will be getting close anyways. But on the whole, I'd feel better about the demolisher moving than a medusa.

Raythor wrote:Alerian, I agree, the only reason I brougt the LRBT into the discussion was to say that it functions better as an AV14 fire magnet, if that's what you want. Cheaper, and doesn't need to get close to dangerous anti armor weapons like the demolisher needs to. IIRC from your own batreps, your LRD didn't fare too well in a lot of your games...

Then you are sadly mistaken, as I have never posted any batreps....

For the record, my Demos always do well in supporting my meltavets/CCS by either clearing a path for them, or by screening them and absorbing AT fire for them. The point of the Demo is to get close, break up the enemy lines, and support other units that need to get close, like meltavets. This means that its 24" cannon is not a drawback, when it is used for the proper role.

Oh, my mistake. Someone else that goes by the same handle posted a bunch of batreps back in the day.

I've been stuck with a similar question. but since 5th ed. came out all i've run were Demolishers. if it's not broken don't fix it.
I like the Medusa alot, especialy the FW model. like it enough that i bought 2. but for now, Demolishers all the way.

and to throw another wrinkle into it, i give both of my Demolishers Plasma sponsons. i know it's alot of points. makes it a threat
at 36", ap 2 and makes more effective if i get weapons destroyed. deep down i feel there are better uses for the 40 to 80 points,
but i've had fun with them so far.

Medusae for me, Theyre a big threat for vehicles and termies alike, so they tend to attract huge volumes of fire, hide them well or try to form a killzone for them.

Get the Medusas. I run a battery of 3 and hide them behind some kind of cover. Their indirect fire raining down on ememy tanks and infantry is devastating considering there is 3 of them. If one gets destroyed Oh well I got 2 more.

Spartan 117 wrote:Get the Medusas. I run a battery of 3 and hide them behind some kind of cover. Their indirect fire raining down on ememy tanks and infantry is devastating considering there is 3 of them. If one gets destroyed Oh well I got 2 more.

Medusas CANNOT fire indirectly.