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275 for Draigo is a huge load of points when the total is 1500. A Grandmaster is 100 points less and can always make ~700 points of Paladins scoring with his Grand Strategy ability. But then of course you are limited to 10 Paladins, combat squadded to 2 groups of 5 if you want them as troops to be a sure thing.

At his point level is it better to take a GM, 10 Paladins, and perhaps the rest regular terminators, or is it better to take Draigo and have all Paladins?

Depends on how much ap2 the other side has. Would not want to play against a 3kp list at any point level, but many lists might table it like my demo charge heavy ig.

I guess what my question really is, is it better to have all Paladins and Draigo, or some Paladins and a GM with some other regular Terminators? At 1500 points.

I've been putting a lot of thought into Draigo-wing lately because I'm working on an all paladin army. I have yet to play a game but I have some experience playing Deathwing in 4th edition.

As far as how viable the army can be, I don't think all pallys will be bringing home a lot of tournment titles. The army is just too small and one error, such as a bad deep strike scatter or one turn of bad dice can really shut it down. It also lacks speed/maneuverability to compete with fast armies like eldar/dark eldar.

I have not gave as much though to 1.5k points, I've been mainly considering playing this list at 2k. But, one thing to think about when comparing paladins to terminators is cost. For 15 points per model, paladins get an extra point of weapon skill, an extra wound, and holocaust. They also get twice as many special weapons and the ability to take an apothecary. I really think that paladins are a much better choice points-wise than GK terminators.

In the end though, I guess you may as well play a few games either way, and see which style you prefer. GKGM, paladin squad, and terminator squads, or Draigo and all paladins.

Consider not taking Driago, instead take Coteaz and a few small henchmen units then paladins as elites.

It ends up being cheaper and youcan give your 5 man paladin squads chimera's

Grundz wrote:Consider not taking Driago, instead take Coteaz and a few small henchmen units then paladins as elites.

It ends up being cheaper and youcan give your 5 man paladin squads chimera's

D'oh there I go again leaving out vital information. I want to do a footslog army, which is mostly Paladins, with possibly some Terminators.

Your idea is definitely a good one, but I'm planning on leaving the transports at home.

Well, if you want to play a Pally list, pray that you never face IG, DE, or any other army that can spam AP1-2 weapons, because it will pretty much be an autoloss for you. Your guys will get gunned down by the handfull. Since so many armies can achieve this with Melta spam and such, I do not believe that Draigo-wing is viable at any point level, in a competitive environment.

A single squad of Pallies, with Draigo, can be a very powerful unit, in a balanced army; however, an entire army of pallies and termies will be hard pressed to be competitive.

DA only pull off pure termie armies, because they can spam TH/SS Termies +CML....the SS makes all the difference, and GKs don't have them.

Well melta I wouldn't be too worried about as the range is short. But yes, you are right, besides melta, that kind of spam would spell trouble.

I realize Draigowing wouldn't win tournaments because of that, but in a non super-competitive environment I feel like it would do ok. Just not sure if a mix of termies and paladins would do a little better.

Not sure why I would need to pray, it is not like I expect to go undefeated. Although maybe if I prayed to Super Jesus like in your avatar maybe I would?

Termionators in my experience do much worse than Paladins (who should not, in general, be deep struck but rather Outflank via Grand strategy or come on via your own board edge in a Raider or 'raven.

I've played low-AP spam Space Fairies, Imperial Weaklings, Marines and Werewolf Wannabes (who are by far the toughest match-up in my experience) and have won as many or more as I have lost. A Draigo/Paladin list properlyt played is extraordinarily hard to table and better at objective missions than one might think (while Annihilation is pretty much guaranteed win unless you make a major mistake).

The game is often won or lost before it starts. you have to get your Grand Strategy and Reserving right. You need Draigo and a Librarian though. I'm not sure it works well without Might, Shrouding, Quicksilver and Sanctuary (and Warp Rift is a much overlooked power, I find).

Artemo wrote:Termionators in my experience do much worse than Paladins (who should not, in general, be deep struck but rather Outflank via Grand strategy or come on via your own board edge in a Raider or 'raven.

You mean the Paladins should either outflank or catch a ride? I think I agree with you. Seems like giving them Scout and having them move closer to mid-field could work too...

You need Draigo and a Librarian though. I'm not sure it works well without Might, Shrouding, Quicksilver and Sanctuary (and Warp Rift is a much overlooked power, I find).

Oy, at 1500 points that's a hell of a lot of points invested in two models!

At 1500, Draigostar works best to take two 5 man Paladin squads, and the rest, not Paladins. If you need other things to score, Draigo can do that.

Paladins as troops are a reasonable idea, even with the Draigo tax. All Paladins is just asking to lose.

See this is my issue then. If I am only taking 2x5, I can take a full 10 man squad of them, make them troops with my GM, and then combat squad them if I wish. Draigo doesn't seem to be needed then, and I save 100 points. I realize he has other benefits over the GM (improved stats, SS and EW) but when points are tight at a low level, is he really worth it?

Also, don't discount Draigo's value of being able to soak up some of those Str 8/Ap2 ID wounds when he's attached to some pallies.

Not to mention the fact that he's just a brick house that you can throw at just about anything.

I run draigowing at 1500 as draigo + 2x 10man paladin squads, and its gets significantly harder, you lose your apothecary, your brotherhood banners, alot of your wound allocation, and atleast 1 or 2 of your psycannons. However it still works, just not as wonderfully as the 1750 version.

I dunno. At 1500 you are relying pretty heavily on your very few squads to be effective every turn. I played against a 6 kp GK army at 1850 and it was pretty rugged. But I don't think you can field the tools you need to beat faster moving armies at 1500.
Try it out though and see if you can get a handle on it. Maybe take 2 squads of pallies with draigo and a lib? Then throw in a couple dreads for long range support/transport busting.

Properly used, Paladins with Draigo and Librarian are really hard to kill. Objective games need more forethought than kill point ones (which are pretty much guaranteed wins unless you really foul up) and the specific placement of objectives, grand strategy choices and deployment/reserving is critical. But objective games are definitely winnable unless you get a 5 objectives mission (though I have won one of those), though sometimes hard to win, and usually drawable if you can’t win. But if you foul up the pre-game a loss is well on the cards.

I at first dismissed paladin lists at less than 200 points, but some experimentation has shown they can do pretty well. Certainly they're not uncompetitive. Just unforgiving.

Hmm, unforgiving... well that will help me learn more about the game than the extremely forgiving Space Wolves I usually play with, so that sounds like a good thing.

What would you recommend for 1500 points? One super squad of 10 with Draigo and Libby? And some 400 points for other things?

Artemo wrote:
I at first dismissed paladin lists at less than 200 points, but some experimentation has shown they can do pretty well. Certainly they're not uncompetitive. Just unforgiving.

Yeah, i generally dismiss paladin lists at under 200 pts too.

loota boy wrote:

Artemo wrote:
I at first dismissed paladin lists at less than 200 points, but some experimentation has shown they can do pretty well. Certainly they're not uncompetitive. Just unforgiving.

Yeah, i generally dismiss paladin lists at under 200 pts too.

Hmm, an Inquisitor HQ is only 25 points.... henchman don't cost that much... you can probably fit a Paladin or two in a 200 point list.

200 pt paladin list.

Corteaz-100pts.

3 acolytes- 12pts

3 Acolytes- 12pts

1 Paladin w/ 21 pts of upgrades.

200pts.

That's the only legal list i could make for under 200 pts that invloved a paladin.

loota boy wrote:200 pt paladin list.

Corteaz-100pts.

3 acolytes- 12pts

3 Acolytes- 12pts

1 Paladin w/ 21 pts of upgrades.

200pts.

That's the only legal list i could make for under 200 pts that invloved a paladin.

Oh right, only Corteaz makes henchmen troops. Dur.

Anywhoo, getting off that tangent. People who run Paladins or at least a Paladin centered force at 1500? What do you do with the rest of your points if you limit yourself to footslogging? Terminators? Dreadnoughts/knights?

Typos (or rather a very sluggish/lagging Dakka) aside, at 1500 I'd run maybe:

Draigo -- 275

Librarian w/ warding stave, Mot, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift -- 210

5 Paladins w/ banner, 2 psycannon, 2 falchions, hammer, stave, psybolts -- 390

5 paladins w/ 2 psycannon, hammer, 2 halberds, stave, psybolts -- 355

Land Raider Crusader w/ multi-melta, psybolts -- 270

Though I think variants of that (6 man squad/s, no psybolts, no squad staves, etc) are just as viable. The key (and also the core of my 2000 point force which I find does very nicely) is the Crusader delivered Draigo/Librarian/Squad. It will shred almost anything and with a modicum of care is extraordinarily hard to eradicate.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I ran an entirely foot-bound paladin list, I'd support it with Venerable dreadnoughts. I don't think an all foot list (or deep striking in most cases, though with a teleport homer on the Librarian, it could be okay) is going to work well, but in fairness I've not tried it and so i'd hesitate to say it wouldn't given that many people just say 'paladins not viable', when in fact they seem to me to be better than MSU mech Marines at least (given my record with both)

Hmm, interesting. Psybolts on 5 man squads though, benefiting only 3 guys in each squad (since the other 2 have psycannons). Seems pricey to me. But then again everything is pricey in a Paladin list

Basically everyone is saying a Librarian is important - he costs almost as much as 5 terminators or a 10 man Strike Squad though, on top of Draigo. But seems to make the super star Paladins that much tougher.

As far as Ven Dreads, you thinking rifleman / psybolt style or something else? That reinforced aegis could come in handy if a dread is moving up with the Paladins....

I did the maths on psybolts. For 5 man squads (ie 3 firers benefitting) it's pretty much an decent option (more men and it becomes a sound option, less than 5 and it's a poor option). If you don't take them then I'd try to find 15 points for an extra paladin.

With one dreadnought, especially if) fielding a stormraven (which you can tinker this list to accomodate, but is harder to play becasue Draigo and the Librarian end up split, I'd field it with either assault cannon/psybolts or assault cannon, psybolts, heavy flamner, psyflame and use it as you say in close support for more Aegis.

Any other venerables beyond the first I'd be inclined to take as 2 x TL autocannon, psybolts.

i think the Librarian is absolutely key to the list. Without him you can be tarpitted by dreadnoughts, struggle against high initiative, find it harder to get the charge and get shot more. I see my opponents increasingly targetting him in melee rather than Draigo (hence his Stave).


The 'raven list would be
Draigo -- 275
Librarian as above plus teleport homer and digital weapons (or a servo-skull)-- 230
5 paladins: banner, 2 psycannon, 2 falchions, stave, hammer, psybolts -- 390
5 paladins: banner, 2 psycannon, 2 halberds, stave, hammer, psybolts -- 380
Stormraven, multi-melta, psybolts -- 225

Librarian and the falchions squad in the 'raven. Reserved unless (and maybe if too) you get first turn. Draigo and the other squad deep striking. Of course if Draigo comes onb table first, they'll scatter, but iof you try and ensure they're likely to land in terrain, they'll get the all important cover save against ID. I don't like this variant as much. You could always just have Draigo deepstrike and use his GS to Outflank the other squad, which on the whole I think would be a safer option.

Why does everyone what to outflank, deep strke, or transport your paladins?

You just start them in the middle of the board and cut loose with their 4 psycannons.

I play a list where the only troops are paladins and I’ve mainly played at 1500 points with a list of

Draigo
Librarian: (Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, the Shrouding, Warp Rift), warding stave
6 Paladins: 2 psycannon, psybolts, 2 falchions, 2 swords, hammer
5 Paladins: 2 psycannon, psybolts, 2 falchions, 2 swords, hammer
Land Raider Crusader: multi-melta, psybolts

1500 points exactly.

I have played a few games at less points and a few at more but 1500 is where I’ve had most success, as well as having played most games. I’ve lost one 1500 point match so far. Now I must say that some games have not been against very strong opponents or were against armies I thought either a poor match for the paladin force or just a not very strong list. But I’ve won against good local players, experienced with their armies and with quite carefully honed lists.

I almost always reserve everything and try to go second because I think if you can limit your exposure to enemy fire, get an extra turn’s shooting (because the enemy has nothing to fire at until you enter) and have your final turn ‘free’ to grab or contest objectives (if you see what I mean), with Draigo and the Librarian maybe splitting away to do just that, it’s hard for the enemy to eliminate you.

I must say though that I agree that the game is most often won or lost before it starts. I’d also add that as you tend to throw fewer dice than most opponents you are somewhat more at risk from extreme results which can make luck rather more of a factor in winning or losing.

Artemo wrote:Typos (or rather a very sluggish/lagging Dakka) aside, at 1500 I'd run maybe:

Draigo -- 275

Librarian w/ warding stave, Mot, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift -- 210

5 Paladins w/ banner, 2 psycannon, 2 falchions, hammer, stave, psybolts -- 390

5 paladins w/ 2 psycannon, hammer, 2 halberds, stave, psybolts -- 355

Land Raider Crusader w/ multi-melta, psybolts -- 270

Though I think variants of that (6 man squad/s, no psybolts, no squad staves, etc) are just as viable. The key (and also the core of my 2000 point force which I find does very nicely) is the Crusader delivered Draigo/Librarian/Squad. It will shred almost anything and with a modicum of care is extraordinarily hard to eradicate.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I ran an entirely foot-bound paladin list, I'd support it with Venerable dreadnoughts. I don't think an all foot list (or deep striking in most cases, though with a teleport homer on the Librarian, it could be okay) is going to work well, but in fairness I've not tried it and so i'd hesitate to say it wouldn't given that many people just say 'paladins not viable', when in fact they seem to me to be better than MSU mech Marines at least (given my record with both)

If i may, i'd modify this list a touch. It's a good base, but i think that certain upgrades are not needed in certain places. I'd try-

Draigo-275

Libby w/ shrouding, sanctuary, quicksilver- 165

I trimmed off the stave, Mot, and warp rift, because Draigo can tank stuff well enough with a 3+ invul, so the stave isn't neccissary. The other 2 powers are also a touch frivolous(?).

6 paladins w/banner, 2 psycannons, 2 falchions, 1 hammer, 2 swords, 1 mc- 410

Stave isn't neccissary for reasons above, i added an extra paladin, and took off psybolt because it is a luxery.

6 paladins w/2 psycannons, 2 halberds, 1 hammer, 2 swords, 1 mc, 1 stave- 395

Added extra paladin and took off psybolt.

Landraider Crusador- 255

You should never give Crusadors psybolt because it makes the hurricane bolters non-defensive weapons. The multimelta was a luxery.

I’m afraid I disagree.

Because ICs can be targeted in melee, and cannot take hits to protect their squads, the staves add significantly to survivability. I might lose them from the squads (though you don’t want a squad to be eliminated if you can help it and the stave make cost 1/3 of a paladin but probably saves a paladin a game at least on average) but not from the Librarian. He also needs Might, Quicksilver, Sanctuary and Shrouding. Warp Rift is actually bloody useful and much under-rated. Properly placed the template can often catch two vehicles I find because people tend to gang up to assault. Might lets every squad member wreck vehicles in melee. In a multi-assault involving Dreadnoughts this pays dividends.

Psybolts, mathematically are right on the margin of cost effectiveness when only six shots benefit. I can see either way on that. You need to free up 15 to buy another paladin though if you drop ‘em.

As for the Crusader, S7 rending is much better than S6 rending and worth not being able to fire the hurricane bolters on a 6” move (and when static of course it can fire everything). The multi-melta is much more effective at trashing high AV vehicles than the assault cannon (and importantly adds to ranged anti-tank fire) and has more than paid off it’s ten point value in every game I’ve played bar one where it missed on the first turn of entry and the raider was then destroyed turn 3. I think in a paladin list a Crusader should always take psybolts.

I'm afraid i disagree.

Draigo's main purpose is to tank shots. If your wasting that ability your wasting the only stormshield in the codex(Minus crusaders). You can add a stave to the squad, but there is zero point in having 2 staves and a stormshield in one squad. It's overkill, and it's a waste of 40 points.

Warp rift, as effective as it may be, is not a nescessity. It's frivoulous, and far from required. Mot is great, and i hate dropping it, but it's quite possible to get along without it.

Psybolts, again, are wonderful to have, but not neccissary at all. Again, it's a luxury, and a luxury i'd be willing to drop. I'd still rather put those points elsewhere, unless i was running a larger squad. The points would most likely be better spent on brotherhood banners.

Crusaders are taken for their superb ability as an assault vehicle, and the ability to shoot forward at full speed, all guns blazing. If you are only interested in the str 7 assault cannon, and care little for the ability to fire all 3 guns, then i suggest you put your points in a redeemer. It's cheaper, and still has an assault cannon.

Multi-melta. Again, luxury item. You have enough rending weapons and daemon hammers to handle heavy armour.