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I have already asked this on other forums, but would like your opinions too.

If some Tyrant guards goes to ground (Without a Tyrant)... and a Tyrant then joins them (using the rules for IC)... But MC's can't go to ground... So have the whole unit "gone to ground" or are they no longer "gone to ground"?

What happens?

You go to ground during your opponent's turn. You won't be able to join the unit until your turn, so this won't ever come up in a game.

augustus5 wrote:You go to ground during your opponent's turn. You won't be able to join the unit until your turn, so this won't ever come up in a game.

uuuuuuhmm... rubbish is rubbish? Maybe you should have a read on the rules my friend. sure, go to ground is during my opponent's turn. But it will last until the end of my turn. So yes, this can come up in a game. What would be the point of pinning if it did not have an effect in my turn?

We need to look at which of these two rules are the more specific one.

The MC rules, which affects only MCs, would seem to be more specific than the Going To Ground rules, which affects everybody.

Unfortunately this will IMO lead to Hive Tyrants being able to "un-pin" Tyrant Guard after having gone to ground.

Welcome to TFG-hood if you try to pull this off during a game. Even claiming that this is an "irresistible force vs. immovable object-situation", and would require a roll-off, makes you a TFG.

In short it should go in your "just don't do it-list".

Nah, I'm not that type of guy

I just think it is a very interesting question

It is.

But it doesn't matter: hive guard go to ground in your opponents turn, they cant move on your turn. On your turn, the tyrant moves within 2 and joins them, and now the unit still cant move. End of your turn, they are unpinned, and cant GTG again because of the MC. No matter what you decide on whether the tyrant is pinned or guard are unpinned, it makes no difference. You cant move either way.

lledwey wrote:But it doesn't matter: hive guard go to ground in your opponents turn, they cant move on your turn. On your turn, the tyrant moves within 2 and joins them, and now the unit still cant move. End of your turn, they are unpinned, and cant GTG again because of the MC. No matter what you decide on whether the tyrant is pinned or guard are unpinned, it makes no difference. You cant move either way.

It might matter. If the MC joining the unit un-pins it, then the player can potentially shoot/assault when otherwise unable.

I'm not going to argue this one way or another - frankly I'm too tired to look up the rules in the first place.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

lledwey wrote:But it doesn't matter: hive guard go to ground in your opponents turn, they cant move on your turn. On your turn, the tyrant moves within 2 and joins them, and now the unit still cant move. End of your turn, they are unpinned, and cant GTG again because of the MC. No matter what you decide on whether the tyrant is pinned or guard are unpinned, it makes no difference. You cant move either way.

It might matter. If the MC joining the unit un-pins it, then the player can potentially shoot/assault when otherwise unable.

I'm not going to argue this one way or another - frankly I'm too tired to look up the rules in the first place.

I'm not sure that being pinned is mutually exclusive with the tyrant joining. Here's how I see it playing out:


-Hive Guard go to ground for 6+ cover.
-They are pinned in your turn.
-Tyrant joins, but cannot go to ground, "unless otherwise specified in their special rules."
-This has no bearing on the gone-to-ground unit. The Independent Character rule says that the joining IC must then go to ground. Nothing at all about the other unit magically getting up.
-Tyrant joins and the unit may not move any further.
-Tyrant can not shoot because, while the MC rules state that he cannot go to ground "voluntarily or otherwise.", the gone-to-ground rule states that the unit can do nothing. So, as soon as the Tyrant joins, he basically becomes gone-to-ground, without going-to-ground because his actions are dictated by the unit.
-Whole unit receives a cover save because the majority of the unit is gone-to-ground.
-Next turn, the unit acts normally.

That's how I would handle it, anyway.

But if a Unit of marines is 3" away, can the Hive Tyrant, & Guard assault in the assault phase?

1. Enemy shoots your guard, you go to ground

2. In your turn you join the tyrant to the unit, he can't go to ground as a MC. I wouldn't allow him to shoot, assault or unpin the unit as a byproduct of the fact he's getting to join a unit he technically shouldn't be able to join until your following turn. If you wanted to shoot or assault, he would not be attached to the unit, IMO.

3. End of your turn everyone is standing as normal for your opponents next turn and is a IC plus Unit.

That's the logical outcome but knowing this forum it will usually be trumped by people that bend the rules to breaking point.

OK, can an already joined Tyrant/Tyrant guard unit go to ground? Yes, because the UNIT is not a Monstrous creature. So sure, join the Tyrant to the TG while they're GTG, and the whole unit is pinned. I'm not sure I see where the question is on this one.

well... no...an already joined Tyrant/Tyrant guard unit cannot go to ground. The tyrant guards have a rule named "shield wall", that states the unit cannot go to ground voluntarily or otherwise if the Tyrant have joined... so no.

I agree with Mondo and Puma: The Tyrant cannot choose to Go to Ground, but if he joins a unit which has previously Gone to Ground before he got there, he will be affected by the unit's restrictions and unable to act for the rest of that turn.

Ah Kijamon, we warned you, didn't we?

Well, imo, it's pretty simple: If you go to ground with the Tyrant Guard, and insist on joining the Tyrant the next turn, that Tyrant does NOT benefit from extra cover due to being a monstrous creature, but cannot do anything else that turn since the rest of the unit is pinned (gone to ground). Seems pretty cut and dry to me, I agree with Mannahnin.

Darkjediben wrote:
does NOT benefit from extra cover due to being a monstrous creature

Why not? The majority of his unit has cover.

Because you're specifically ignoring several other rules in order to make your ONE rule work. This is why I hate this forum. The idea is not to find the tiniest sliver of evidence to make one interpretation work, the idea is to look at the ruleset as a whole and see what makes sense. Stop trying to be TFG. It's pretty obvious to everybody else.

Darkjediben wrote:Because you're specifically ignoring several other rules in order to make your ONE rule work. This is why I hate this forum. The idea is not to find the tiniest sliver of evidence to make one interpretation work, the idea is to look at the ruleset as a whole and see what makes sense. Stop trying to be TFG. It's pretty obvious to everybody else.

You do realize that if a Tyrant joins a unit of Tyrant Guard, and all of those tyrant guard are in cover, but the Tyrant is not, that the Tyrant gets a cover save, yes?

It is not getting a cover save because 50% or more of it is in cover - it is getting a cover save because the majority of it's unit has cover.

Also this:

Darkjediben wrote:Stop trying to be TFG.

is completely unnecessary. I don't even play Tyranids.

I hate to rain on this entire topics parade...but the Tyrant is NOT an IC. So this question should never come up in game.

xenoburst wrote:I hate to rain on this entire topics parade...but the Tyrant is NOT an IC. So this question should never come up in game.

Wow, out of all the seasoned players here and all the people that live and breath the rules of Warhammer 40K - how could we have missed that?!

Check page 35 of the Tyranid Codex:

Tyranid Codex wrote:
A single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character. . .

I think I might have just gotten trolled.

But but but but isn't the timing this:

Bug Phase:
Tyrant and Tyrant Guard are separate units.

Opponent Phase:
Shoots at Tyrant Guard
Tyrant Guard go to ground.

Bug Phase:
Tyrant moves to within 2" of Tyrant Guard.
Joins unit.
Unit does nothing until end of Bug Phase.

End of Bug Phase -> gone to ground removed

Opponent Phase:
Shoots at Tyrant & Guard.
Unit cannot go to ground because of Tyrant.

So unless I'm missing something (and I normally am) the Tyrant never gets to benefit from the GtG anyway.

kmdl1066 wrote:

So unless I'm missing something (and I normally am) the Tyrant never gets to benefit from the GtG anyway.

Unless a rogue blast marker landed on them.

But otherwise yes, the point is mostly moot. I think the biggest question is can the tyrant shoot, which I would say no because his actions are dictated by the rest of the unit having gone-to-ground.

puma713 wrote:

xenoburst wrote:I hate to rain on this entire topics parade...but the Tyrant is NOT an IC. So this question should never come up in game.

Wow, out of all the seasoned players here and all the people that live and breath the rules of Warhammer 40K - how could we have missed that?!

Check page 35 of the Tyranid Codex:

Tyranid Codex wrote:
A single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character. . .

He still doesn't have the rule of IC.

My apologies though, but we can still roll with page 35. Which says that the Guard cannot go to ground voluntarily or otherwise if joined by a Tyrant. So. One would assume that they would pop out the minute the Tyrant joined.

Now I'm actually interested in this answer since I was under the impression that you could only take Tyrant Guards if you took the Tyrant so never really thought he could leave em.

I think I might have just gotten trolled.

No trolling, I've seen some people on Tyranid specific forums roll around with the Tyrant joining things since the Prime could so I wasn't sure if I was missing something or if everyone else was.
That'll teach me to think I have something constructive to add :p

xenoburst wrote:
Which says that the Guard cannot go to ground voluntarily or otherwise if joined by a Tyrant. So. One would assume that they would pop out the minute the Tyrant joined.

But they're already gone-to-ground. There is nothing suggesting that the tyrant guard are going to be affected any differently once the Tyrant is a part of the unit. It's sort of like becoming Fearless when you're pinned. You don't automatically get up - you were still Pinned, you're just Fearless now and automatically pass any further Pinning checks (if you could take them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xenoburst wrote:
That'll teach me to think I have something constructive to add :p

Well, if a bunch of people are having a conversation about a ruling and they have referenced, more than once, the ability for a Tyrant to join a unit, not to mention the Codex saying it and the FAQs referencing it - to say that the topic is moot because he can't join them is not constructive. I'm not trying to offend you. I'm trying to help you

And the comment about "being trolled" wasn't about you in particular. It was about the fact that your first post was right after you joined and in the YMDC forum - which is rare, in my experience. So, obviously I wasn't being trolled and I apologize for that.

puma713 wrote:

xenoburst wrote:
Which says that the Guard cannot go to ground voluntarily or otherwise if joined by a Tyrant. So. One would assume that they would pop out the minute the Tyrant joined.

But they're already gone-to-ground. There is nothing suggesting that the tyrant guard are going to be affected any differently once the Tyrant is a part of the unit. It's sort of like becoming Fearless when you're pinned. You don't automatically get up - you were still Pinned, you're just Fearless now and automatically pass any further Pinning checks (if you could take them).

Fair enough. I've just never seen anyone run Tyrant Guards without being attached to the Tyrant, kinda defeats the purpose o.o

Cool, good to know this in case I ever come across it. Thanks!

puma713 wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:
So unless I'm missing something (and I normally am) the Tyrant never gets to benefit from the GtG anyway.

Unless a rogue blast marker landed on them.

But otherwise yes, the point is mostly moot. I think the biggest question is can the tyrant shoot, which I would say no because his actions are dictated by the rest of the unit having gone-to-ground.

Ah, see, knew I was missing something.

Totally agree that the Tyrant would not be able to shoot. So it would almost certainly be something detrimental to the 'nid player.

Neat thought exercise & creative thinking though.

xenoburst wrote:kinda defeats the purpose o.o

You're right there!

puma713 wrote:

xenoburst wrote:
Which says that the Guard cannot go to ground voluntarily or otherwise if joined by a Tyrant. So. One would assume that they would pop out the minute the Tyrant joined.

But they're already gone-to-ground. There is nothing suggesting that the tyrant guard are going to be affected any differently once the Tyrant is a part of the unit. It's sort of like becoming Fearless when you're pinned. You don't automatically get up - you were still Pinned, you're just Fearless now and automatically pass any further Pinning checks (if you could take them).

So you are suggesting part of the unit being "gone to ground" while the Tyrant not being gone to ground? because MC's can't go to ground.

hmmm... I'll call Games Workshop today. Hopefully they'll be able to answer this question and I'll let you all know if they can.

Dont bother. Its not like the answer from whoever picks up the phone carries any weight anywhere anyway.

Totally not a bot wrote:

puma713 wrote:

xenoburst wrote:Which says that the Guard cannot go to ground voluntarily or otherwise if joined by a Tyrant. So. One would assume that they would pop out the minute the Tyrant joined.

But they're already gone-to-ground. There is nothing suggesting that the tyrant guard are going to be affected any differently once the Tyrant is a part of the unit. It's sort of like becoming Fearless when you're pinned. You don't automatically get up - you were still Pinned, you're just Fearless now and automatically pass any further Pinning checks (if you could take them).

So you are suggesting part of the unit being "gone to ground" while the Tyrant not being gone to ground? because MC's can't go to ground.

They can't CHOOSE to go to ground. But they're not choosing to go to ground. They're joining a unit which has already gone to ground. It's just like the earlier example of a Fearless character choosing to join a squad which has already Gone to Ground. He doesnt suddenly negate that state. Nothing in the rules suggests or implies that joining a unit with an immune character negates the Gone to Ground status.

Totally not a bot wrote:hmmm... I'll call Games Workshop today. Hopefully they'll be able to answer this question and I'll let you all know if they can.

See point 2 of the Tenets of You Make Da Call.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Answers from GW staff are not reliable and are frequently inconsistent from one call to the next. Infamously so, unfortunately.