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again, i have searched this but the search found nothing.

basically me and my friends have started battlin' and last night we chose sides for a 2 on 2 1000pts each game. i was with an eldar army that basically left me for dead lol. now, i know i should never get into combat with guard (which i always avoid) but one thing i realised i had no defense against was when my other mate just deep striked his men right by deployment zone. so, how or what can combat these sort of tactics with guard (if there are any!)

here was what i had, i know its not the best but it was a thousand point limit.

HQ - CCS w/ straken, reg. standard, HF, flamer x2, bodyguards x2 >> im considering getting nork deddog as my straken seems to get into combat and survive forever, and nork has more wounds is he good for cc?

Troops - plasma vets w/ PP, PW, x3 Plasma, AC
- melta vets w/ PF, x3 melta, AC

ded. transports - x3 chimeras (1x HB/HF, 2x ML/HF) >> i was sceptical with the performance of the Multi-laser, but its done better than i thought it would

Fast attack - vendetta w/ hellfury missiles, TLLC, HB sponsons >> such a valuable unit, but the game before this it performed 10 fold with 3x TLLC

Heavy support - vanquisher w/ LC, pask >> the previous game this did ok, but as soon as one tank is gone it just sits about and looks good lol, against a battlewagon it just doesn't penetrate with the kff spam..... and im thinking of cutting pask out either completely or when i get my executioner.

so thats about it really for my list, the blood angels list had a tac squad at the back in a rhino (did nowt most of the game), an assault squad charged up the centre and the deepstriking units were a land speeder typhoon, 10 man assault squad with reclusiarch *spelling. and a furioso. the next game we play will be 1200 i think, and i know he'll want to deep strike more assault squads and death company. i mean, who wouldn't??

so yeah, what tactics/units can combat deep striking?

Depends on the type of deep strike.

Officer of the fleet will delay reserves.

If you go 1st against a 100% ds army pop smoke on all vehicles.

Pie plates catch more marines if they are centered on a drop pod than if it is centered on the squad.

Demo charges in any shape or form scare ds units. They are a hateful solution to ds units.

It depends on what kind of army you have, and what kind of DS-ing army they have.

Deployment is often the key to defeating DS armies.

You can "bubble wrap" your important/expensive/vulnerable units with cheaper units, particularly squads of infantry, to make it so that your opponent cannot drop close enough to the expensive stuff to shoot & blow it up when he drops.

Against most DSing armies iyou usually want to deploy in a "castle" (mutually supporting defensive formation), so that he cannot isolate or pick off units of yours without you being able to hit him back.

If your army is mobile and lacking in cheap infantry to bubblewrap your tanks, and you are going second, you may wish to actually Reserve your army. This takes away your opponent's ability to shoot anything on his initial drop, and allows you instead to hit him first when your stuff arrives.

The above tactic is bad against Daemons, though, and usually against Descent of Angels Blood Angels, too, as they will have too much stuff on the table by the time you arrive and it will overwhelm your Reserves as they straggle on.

schadenfreude wrote:Depends on the type of deep strike.

Officer of the fleet will delay reserves.

If you go 1st against a 100% ds army pop smoke on all vehicles.

Pie plates catch more marines if they are centered on a drop pod than if it is centered on the squad.

Demo charges in any shape or form scare ds units. They are a hateful solution to ds units.

i assume i can pop smoke each turn? before shooting i assume? officer of the fleet sounds excellent now lol, but does that delay include all deep striking units or do blood angels get some extra stuff that negates this? - bear with me, i have been modelling for years but just started playing properly!

Mannahnin wrote:It depends on what kind of army you have, and what kind of DS-ing army they have.

Deployment is often the key to defeating DS armies.

You can "bubble wrap" your important/expensive/vulnerable units with cheaper units, particularly squads of infantry, to make it so that your opponent cannot drop close enough to the expensive stuff to shoot & blow it up when he drops.

Against most DSing armies iyou usually want to deploy in a "castle" (mutually supporting defensive formation), so that he cannot isolate or pick off units of yours without you being able to hit him back.

If your army is mobile and lacking in cheap infantry to bubblewrap your tanks, and you are going second, you may wish to actually Reserve your army. This takes away your opponent's ability to shoot anything on his initial drop, and allows you instead to hit him first when your stuff arrives.

The above tactic is bad against Daemons, though, and usually against Descent of Angels Blood Angels, too, as they will have too much stuff on the table by the time you arrive and it will overwhelm your Reserves as they straggle on.

yeah, so far i have had the bad luck of going first so everyone just knows what to do against me! as for my army type, its a mechvet list. so i can declare units in transports in reserve? or does it go for everything? i thought only certain units could go into reserve i.e. predominantly space marine stuff.

also cheers for the tips so far!

Any unit can be in reserve. The vets ride in on their transport. You can only pop smoke once. If he puts everything in reserve either use OftF to delay his units coming in or astropath to help youre reserves come in and place youre whole army in reserve.

First off, drop the HB in the turret and take multilaser. S6 is far more important than AP4, which does not negate MEQ and is irrelevant when shooting into cover. With S6, you wound twice as many MEQ than with S5 (due to T4). S6 is also more useful against light vehicles. I do not see a situation in which the HB is better in the turret than the MuL.

Second, for gunship the best build is Vendetta with 3x TL LC. IG has got plenty of other stuff to do what the other builds can do.

Third, in such a small game against DSing opponents, a Paskquisher is way too expensive for what it does. If you want an LR, take an executioner without Pask (BS is not as important for templates), because the plasma kills MEQ dead, especially when they DS in the open (no cover saves). Another build I'd try is an exterminator with Pask, LC, and multimelta sponsons. Against the dreadnought, Pask makes the 4 TL shots count as S8, the LC shot counts as S10, and the multimelta shots as S9, all at his BS4. Once the dread is dead, the high volume fire can be turned onto the termies and marines.

I am not sure chimeras are a good build against this opponent. They cannot offer protection against CC armies. They can offer some mobility, but then you cannot shoot, because it is not a fast vehicle. Also, if you run away instead of shooting, he simply will have the jumpers demolish your parking lot instead, and besides, the jumpers are as fast as the chimeras, plus they get a charge move.

In your situation, I will ditch the chimeras and build a foot army - powerblobs (combined squads with commissar upgrade and maxed out power weapons) should work better. He does not get the armor save and the FNP against the power weapons. If you need to claim an objective, etc., put a vet squad in the vendetta, or take a penal legion to outflank.

Officer of the fleet can be nasty and is a must against DSing armies.

First looking at your list

I don't feel straken is worth it for mech lists especially not at 1000 points. Straken is a force multiplier that you want to run with platoons with combined squads with power weapons and comissars. Although a mech vets with power weapons straken list can work you want more vets to get straken bonus and they need to stick together. Nork is definitely not worth the points. You want to keep your squads cheap. Just run a 3-4 Melta gun or 3-4 Plasma gun CCS squad in a Chimera. I'm still on the fence about because of the possibility for turn 5 objective grabs if your opponent reserves. If you have the points Astropath gives you the option to reserve if you need to and ability to reroll the side although at 1000 points its pretty rough.

Plasma vets should get a las cannon to keep the same ap value. Not a fan of plasma pistols because if it over heats you might lose your ld 8 sarge and ld 7 kinda sucks. Power weapons and fists aren't worth it unless you running Straken but you don't have that much troops for him to buff at 1k so drop Straken and the power weapons.

Vendettas should have 3 las cannons always.

Drop the vanquisher with pask just too expensive for too few shots. Another Vendetta would be better anti tank and cheaper points wise.

My 1k take all comers list looks like this.

CCS 3 melta chimera ml hf 135

Vets 3 melta chimera ml hf 155

Vets 3 melta chimera ml hf 155

Vets 2 melta chimera ml hf 145

Vendetta 130

Vendetta 130

Hydra hb 75

Hydra hb 75

I normally like Manticores alot but they really cost too much at 1000. You don't really see that many land raiders at 1k.

If your lacking Hydras you could get a 3rd Vendetta and some auto cannons for vets.

As far as dealing with deepstrikers Mannahnin has good advice about castling but beyond that there really are 5 types of deepstrikers. Deathwing, Demons, DOA Blood Angels, Drop Pod Dreads, Drop Pod Troops.

Deathwing: You need to start on the table to be able to put every shot you can into their terminators. Reserving is bad because they can just drop on your side of the board turn 1 with deathwing assault and run so they are already in your face by the time you start arriving from reserves. Deploy close enough that you can concentrate fire but you want to deny multi assaults as much as possible. Smoke if you have first turn and try to deny side shots but they will happen. Keep moving to not get auto hit by hammmers. Plasmas are really good here but I been taking all melta for the mech lists which hurts.

Demons: Same deal as death wing start on the table for more shots. Keep moving to not auto get hit in assaults. Focus down the fast and dangerous to vehicles units first like fiends, screamers seekers, then go for the hard stuff. Sometimes moving 12 and getting away or getting hit on 6s in assault is better then moving only 6 and shooting and getting caught and trashed. This match up should be going the way of the dodo because of Grey Knights, Warp Quake, Dark Excommunication win buttons.

DOA Blood Angels: If going first castling is important here not to get nailed to bad by meltas alpha strike. and just smoke and hope for the best. React and focus fire on their troops. Consider reserving if going second depending on the number of squads and the mission. If you see this match up alot consider plasma or demo charges as 10 marines can be pretty tough to kill.

Drop Pod dreads w tacticals or sternguard: This really isn't that scary as the drop troops or demons. At best they trade their dread for your chimera and then you just melta their dread and probably kill it. If your going first with smokes up its even better. Standard castling applies.

Drop pod troops: this is pretty much the same as vs doa blood angels but they can scatter more and you have pods to pop for additional kill points or that are annoying since they contest objectives.

Deep striking should be less of a concern with Grey Knights and Warp Quake in the mix.

There are other armies with deepstrikes like Guard Storm troopers with meltas or Eldar swooping hawks but they generally are seldom taken and easily dealt with via castling and having heavy flamers to counter.

Necrontyr40k wrote:First off, drop the HB in the turret and take multilaser. S6 is far more important than AP4, which does not negate MEQ and is irrelevant when shooting into cover. With S6, you wound twice as many MEQ than with S5 (due to T4). S6 is also more useful against light vehicles. I do not see a situation in which the HB is better in the turret than the MuL.

Second, for gunship the best build is Vendetta with 3x TL LC. IG has got plenty of other stuff to do what the other builds can do.

Third, in such a small game against DSing opponents, a Paskquisher is way too expensive for what it does. If you want an LR, take an executioner without Pask (BS is not as important for templates), because the plasma kills MEQ dead, especially when they DS in the open (no cover saves). Another build I'd try is an exterminator with Pask, LC, and multimelta sponsons. Against the dreadnought, Pask makes the 4 TL shots count as S8, the LC shot counts as S10, and the multimelta shots as S9, all at his BS4. Once the dread is dead, the high volume fire can be turned onto the termies and marines.

I am not sure chimeras are a good build against this opponent. They cannot offer protection against CC armies. They can offer some mobility, but then you cannot shoot, because it is not a fast vehicle. Also, if you run away instead of shooting, he simply will have the jumpers demolish your parking lot instead, and besides, the jumpers are as fast as the chimeras, plus they get a charge move.

In your situation, I will ditch the chimeras and build a foot army - powerblobs (combined squads with commissar upgrade and maxed out power weapons) should work better. He does not get the armor save and the FNP against the power weapons. If you need to claim an objective, etc., put a vet squad in the vendetta, or take a penal legion to outflank.

Officer of the fleet can be nasty and is a must against DSing armies.

yeah we started going up to 1200, next 1500 (just becuase my army wasn't built) i must admit the multi laser has done me well, much better than the HB. as a new guard player i think i was thinking like a SM player and seeing the str 6 ap 6 as pants - but it definitely isnt lol.

the last game i played i opted back for 3x tllc for the vendetta -miles better option, it always gets it points back.

the chimeras have done ok so far (i play against orks and sm, usually at the same time!) and they are good against my friends horde. the two chimeras with HB's are getting changed to ML's for sure.

thanks for the sage advice!

Kirika wrote:First looking at your list

I don't feel straken is worth it for mech lists especially not at 1000 points. Straken is a force multiplier that you want to run with platoons with combined squads with power weapons and comissars. Although a mech vets with power weapons straken list can work you want more vets to get straken bonus and they need to stick together. Nork is definitely not worth the points. You want to keep your squads cheap. Just run a 3-4 Melta gun or 3-4 Plasma gun CCS squad in a Chimera. I'm still on the fence about because of the possibility for turn 5 objective grabs if your opponent reserves. If you have the points Astropath gives you the option to reserve if you need to and ability to reroll the side although at 1000 points its pretty rough.

Plasma vets should get a las cannon to keep the same ap value. Not a fan of plasma pistols because if it over heats you might lose your ld 8 sarge and ld 7 kinda sucks. Power weapons and fists aren't worth it unless you running Straken but you don't have that much troops for him to buff at 1k so drop Straken and the power weapons.

Vendettas should have 3 las cannons always.

Drop the vanquisher with pask just too expensive for too few shots. Another Vendetta would be better anti tank and cheaper points wise.

My 1k take all comers list looks like this.

CCS 3 melta chimera ml hf 135

Vets 3 melta chimera ml hf 155

Vets 3 melta chimera ml hf 155

Vets 2 melta chimera ml hf 145

Vendetta 130

Vendetta 130

Hydra hb 75

Hydra hb 75

I normally like Manticores alot but they really cost too much at 1000. You don't really see that many land raiders at 1k.

If your lacking Hydras you could get a 3rd Vendetta and some auto cannons for vets.

As far as dealing with deepstrikers Mannahnin has good advice about castling but beyond that there really are 5 types of deepstrikers. Deathwing, Demons, DOA Blood Angels, Drop Pod Dreads, Drop Pod Troops.

Deathwing: You need to start on the table to be able to put every shot you can into their terminators. Reserving is bad because they can just drop on your side of the board turn 1 with deathwing assault and run so they are already in your face by the time you start arriving from reserves. Deploy close enough that you can concentrate fire but you want to deny multi assaults as much as possible. Smoke if you have first turn and try to deny side shots but they will happen. Keep moving to not get auto hit by hammmers. Plasmas are really good here but I been taking all melta for the mech lists which hurts.

Demons: Same deal as death wing start on the table for more shots. Keep moving to not auto get hit in assaults. Focus down the fast and dangerous to vehicles units first like fiends, screamers seekers, then go for the hard stuff. Sometimes moving 12 and getting away or getting hit on 6s in assault is better then moving only 6 and shooting and getting caught and trashed. This match up should be going the way of the dodo because of Grey Knights, Warp Quake, Dark Excommunication win buttons.

DOA Blood Angels: If going first castling is important here not to get nailed to bad by meltas alpha strike. and just smoke and hope for the best. React and focus fire on their troops. Consider reserving if going second depending on the number of squads and the mission. If you see this match up alot consider plasma or demo charges as 10 marines can be pretty tough to kill.

Drop Pod dreads w tacticals or sternguard: This really isn't that scary as the drop troops or demons. At best they trade their dread for your chimera and then you just melta their dread and probably kill it. If your going first with smokes up its even better. Standard castling applies.

Drop pod troops: this is pretty much the same as vs doa blood angels but they can scatter more and you have pods to pop for additional kill points or that are annoying since they contest objectives.

Deep striking should be less of a concern with Grey Knights and Warp Quake in the mix.

There are other armies with deepstrikes like Guard Storm troopers with meltas or Eldar swooping hawks but they generally are seldom taken and easily dealt with via castling and having heavy flamers to counter.

im a bit gutted with straken and his squad because i gave them all flamers (decided to listen to what someone else said) meltas or plasmas would have been miles better.

i never thought of putting a LC in the plasma vet squad, sort of makes sense though. i've taken the pf off of the melta vets, but left the autocannon. (vet's seem to always manage to harm armour with the bring it down rule!) taking the heavy weapon out is probably a good idea for the vets, its just i feel vulnerable without it. i know i can't shoot it if i move but having more lasguns feels like im at a disadvantage..... maybe they aren't so bad, i've never been in a situation thats warranted using First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!.

good advice too with the DS types, grey knights and deathwing aren't a threat at the moment, due to no one i know playing them, and blood angels seem to be out as my friend has opted to go back to the vanilla codex



surely more LRBT's is a good thing? i have an executioner and changed my paskquisher to a normal LRBT, and plan to make it a squadron of three

also who would be better than straken if he's not too desirable?

thanks again

baoh wrote:
surely more LRBT's is a good thing? i have an executioner and changed my paskquisher to a normal LRBT, and plan to make it a squadron of three

I think it depends on the size of the game and whatever else you plan to build up. You may not need that many LR if you plan to have more artillery. Hydras are also very good, which further increases the competition for the HS slots.

With LR, my strategy has been to have each tank with a different trim, so that if I squad them up, i can always have one that is WYSIWYG. Then I can say to the opponent "They are all like this one". When the WYSIWYG gets blown up, I simply switch the models. I have an executioner, a vanquisher, an LRBT, and a converted exterminator (the two cannons and HB on a WW2 t38).

also who would be better than straken if he's not too desirable?

What do you plan to do with the HQ? If you want to shoot, Creed is good for the extra orders. A Lord Commissar is good to make sure the orders are heard and squads stay in line. You can take both. They both seem useful against DSing armies.

Personally, the main idea behind beating a DS army as guard is completely annihilating each unit as they come down.

From personal experience against a Belial Deathwing list, overkill everything. You will have to sacrifice some guardsmen and chimeras as road blocks, but that is better than the alternative. If you let a single depleted squad hit you in CC, you have a good chance of tying or otherwise getting stuck in combat, Stopping your army from being able to fire on the unit.

Large units that are untouched will kill your guardsmen in a single round of combat, and the following turn they will be eliminated from the board by your superior firepower. It is a harsh trade off, but one you will win in the end.

I know it might sound backwards, but do not allow a single or depleted squad to hit your lines, even if you could dump 8 plasma shots into a full strength squad, it is better to kill that 3 man squad which would have tied your squad up. Possibly winning combat in your turn

There are two ways to defeating Pure DS armies when playing guard, seeing as you play mech guard, should be easy peasy.

first of all, check out what kind of stuff is he deepstriking, are they assault marines? or terminators? Drop pods?

And then you choose from 2 maneuvers:

-Reserving your entire army
-Castling

Reserves tactic is good when playing objectives games or when your opponent is playing an alpha-strike DS army. By reserving your entire army, you virtually shorten the game to a number of turns for him to move around the board, kill stuff and claim objectives - a hard feat to do seeing as most DS units are foot slogging. You also dictate the terms of engagement seeing as you are mechinized, and the element of alpha strike will be denied.

Because you have vehicles, it would mean that you will always be faster than him. Avoid the fights you cant win, moving 12" most of the time in lieu of shooting. Always attack from a position of strength.

And then theres tank shock for when you need to contest something. The trickiest part is dislodging his stuff away from objectives - I hope you have plasma or melta vets for this job and some decent artillery weapon.

Castling is easier - because you are mechanized, lure him into open terrain, just be careful in your deployment in that your wrecked tanks wont be bogging down the tanks behind them. Castling is harder to pull off in an objectives game and especially when your opponent knows what they are doing - he will try to delay you as long as possible while holding most of the objectives. Most of the time castling is good for annihilation games.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

baoh wrote:
surely more LRBT's is a good thing? i have an executioner and changed my paskquisher to a normal LRBT, and plan to make it a squadron of three

I think it depends on the size of the game and whatever else you plan to build up. You may not need that many LR if you plan to have more artillery. Hydras are also very good, which further increases the competition for the HS slots.

With LR, my strategy has been to have each tank with a different trim, so that if I squad them up, i can always have one that is WYSIWYG. Then I can say to the opponent "They are all like this one". When the WYSIWYG gets blown up, I simply switch the models. I have an executioner, a vanquisher, an LRBT, and a converted exterminator (the two cannons and HB on a WW2 t38).

also who would be better than straken if he's not too desirable?

What do you plan to do with the HQ? If you want to shoot, Creed is good for the extra orders. A Lord Commissar is good to make sure the orders are heard and squads stay in line. You can take both. They both seem useful against DSing armies.

i am not sure whether im going to go up to 2000pts with my guard yet, as hints from GW means new witch hunters might be on the way makes me want to save money. if i did though, i would probably want to do the usual mech list (don't fancy painting tons of men, even though they may be a better option) probably getting the hydras incase my ork friend gets bikes or deffkoptas, and likewise for the marine player. i'll proxy a commissar tonight or tomorrow if we play to see what he's like.

Yuber wrote:
And then theres tank shock for when you need to contest something. The trickiest part is dislodging his stuff away from objectives - I hope you have plasma or melta vets for this job and some decent artillery weapon.

Castling is easier - because you are mechanized, lure him into open terrain, just be careful in your deployment in that your wrecked tanks wont be bogging down the tanks behind them. Castling is harder to pull off in an objectives game and especially when your opponent knows what they are doing - he will try to delay you as long as possible while holding most of the objectives. Most of the time castling is good for annihilation games.

see, i've been told marines can't be Tank Shock!-ed. as and they shall no know fear, just makes them move out the way and regroup. is this complete bo****ks then? it would be good if it is! and yes i do have plasma vets and melta vets, no artillery though as i am pretty clueless as to what to get. the bassie seemed good but the minimum range of 36" makes it sound useless because we play on a 6x4 board any suggestions on a good artillery piece? - given it works on slapping orks, marines and maybe eldar???

thanks again for the advice!