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Obviously (to me, at least), one of the potential uses for a Librarian is to use his Independent Character rule to place him with an ordinary unit of some kind, rather than buying him an expensive honor guard to hang out with. In this case, however, the Librarian lacks the Descent of Angels special rule, while the squad he has been placed with all enjoy it. What would happen if this squad were to Deep Strike? Do they benefit from the Descent of Angels rule because most of the unit has that rule, or do they all lose it because the Librarian hasn't got it?

EDIT: Forget it - just found the answer to my own question .

If I remember correctly (I don't have the Codex on me) any unit that is equipped with a Jump Pack automatically gains Descent of Angels. Therefore all you need to do is pay the points for the Jump Pack and he will have Descent of Angels.

Sanguinis wrote:If I remember correctly (I don't have the Codex on me) any unit that is equipped with a Jump Pack automatically gains Descent of Angels. Therefore all you need to do is pay the points for the Jump Pack and he will have Descent of Angels.

This. See the Jump Pack entry in the wargear section.

Damn, it's a good thing you guys commented. The answer I found to my own question was wrong :-/. I suppose I should be honored that Sanguinus himself returned fromt he dead to set me straight :-p.

So... all Blood Angels models have Descent of Angels if they are equipped with a jump pack. This means that adding a Librarian or Sanguinary Priest to a unit of angels doesn't rob the unit of their Descent rules. Excellent...

If the librarian did not have the rule (e.g. termie librarian deep striking with jump pack honour guard) then the unit would lose the special rule.

Scott-S6 wrote:If the librarian did not have the rule (e.g. termie librarian deep striking with jump pack honour guard) then the unit would lose the special rule.

Why? It is not a USR marked with an *asterisk. It is not being conferred to the unit or vice versa. If this were true, the Red Thirst wouldnt' work while a Librarian is attached either.

The unit still has DoA, it just may not use it if it is attached to something like a terminator libby.

puma713 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:If the librarian did not have the rule (e.g. termie librarian deep striking with jump pack honour guard) then the unit would lose the special rule.

Why? It is not a USR marked with an *asterisk. It is not being conferred to the unit or vice versa. If this were true, the Red Thirst wouldnt' work while a Librarian is attached either.

It's not a USR. Why are you trying to say that it works like the USR's do?

The unit still has DoA, it just may not use it if it is attached to something like a terminator libby.

No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

ElectricPaladin wrote:Obviously (to me, at least), one of the potential uses for a Librarian is to use his Independent Character rule to place him with an ordinary unit of some kind, rather than buying him an expensive honor guard to hang out with. In this case, however, the Librarian lacks the Descent of Angels special rule, while the squad he has been placed with all enjoy it. What would happen if this squad were to Deep Strike? Do they benefit from the Descent of Angels rule because most of the unit has that rule, or do they all lose it because the Librarian hasn't got it?

EDIT: Forget it - just found the answer to my own question .

My work is done here!

solkan wrote:
No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

So Red Thirst doesn't work for any unit that has an attached IC?

puma713 wrote:

solkan wrote:
No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

So Red Thirst doesn't work for any unit that has an attached IC?

Interesting. I'll be watching this thread over the next couple of hours while people shout back and forth

Ok, how about this:

The Librarian has And They Shall Know No Fear.

The Sanguinary Guard has Fearless.

Does this mean that when these two different kinds of hard, tough, nigh-fearless soldiers get together... they act like ordinary soldiers? Because that would be really stupid.

No - and for that answer Read the fearless rule.

puma713 wrote:

solkan wrote:
No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

So Red Thirst doesn't work for any unit that has an attached IC?

So you're claiming that a biker IC attached to a unit of terminators (or an assault squad wearing jump packs) can deep strike because the terminators (or the models wearing jump packs) can?

solkan wrote:No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

Well this is good news for Death Company with a Chaplain. Since one of the models doesn't have Rage, then clearly the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

And Deep Strike is clearly covered by the FAQ (without which it would be just as ambiguous as this rule).

solkan wrote:

puma713 wrote:

solkan wrote:
No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

So Red Thirst doesn't work for any unit that has an attached IC?

So you're claiming that a biker IC attached to a unit of terminators (or an assault squad wearing jump packs) can deep strike because the terminators (or the models wearing jump packs) can?

Umm, no. We were talking about special rules. Now you're talking about wargear. It's apples and oranges.

I don't believe that the special rule is lost by the unit by an IC joining. Just because a model joins, does not remove the special rules from the rest of the models (unless it says it does). So, yes, I agree that they become a unit of 11 models instead of 10, but with 10 models having Descent of Angels and 1 not having it. The DoA rule says, "a Blood Angels unit with this rule". . .well technically the unit does have the rule. There is nothing in the rulebook supporting the claim that the rules of a unit just vanish. It is not something being conferred to the unit, nor is it being conferred to the IC. The IC just doesn't have the rule.

You said I was treating this like a USR when, in fact, you have been. It is not lost or gained by anyone. And if it is, where are the rules to back that up? Finally - I actually agree with you on the subject itself. I don't think the unit can actually USE DoA if a model attached doesn't have it - but I don't think that the models in the unit that do have it "lose" it, as you're claiming.

It's a sticky subject, I think, because it is not a USR, and there are no rules for handling mixed special rules. So, either way, I think it has to be either house-ruled, or discussed with your opponent.

puma713 wrote:

solkan wrote:

puma713 wrote:

solkan wrote:
No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

So Red Thirst doesn't work for any unit that has an attached IC?

So you're claiming that a biker IC attached to a unit of terminators (or an assault squad wearing jump packs) can deep strike because the terminators (or the models wearing jump packs) can?

Umm, no. We were talking about special rules. Now you're talking about wargear. It's apples and oranges.

If it's apples and oranges, why did you switch to oranges first? Didn't you notice that Descent of Angels was being granted by the jump packs (the wargear)?

solkan wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Umm, no. We were talking about special rules. Now you're talking about wargear. It's apples and oranges.

If it's apples and oranges, why did you switch to oranges first? Didn't you notice that Descent of Angels was being granted by the jump packs (the wargear)?

Sure. But it is a Special Rule that is NOT a USR. That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about HOW they got the Special Rule. If it were a USR (like a Narthecium granting FNP - Rule granted by Wargear), then it would be easy to discuss.

And you brought up terminators, which has nothing to do with anything.

DS is not a USR, either.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DS is not a USR, either.

Right. Meaning that claiming that a bike IC joining a unit of jump pack marines trying to deep strike is a bad example. Reason being: you have to have the ability to deep strike with the unit first before you can even apply DoA. DoA doesn't grant any sort of permission for deep striking. All it is a Special Rule that governs how you deep strike - not who can or who can't.

solkan wrote:It's not a USR. Why are you trying to say that it works like the USR's do?

The unit still has DoA, it just may not use it if it is attached to something like a terminator libby.

No, the combined unit doesn't have DoA. When the IC joins, it goes from a unit of five models, to a unit of six models, and one of those six models doesn't have the DoA rule, so the *unit* as a whole does not have the rule.

Actually now that I think about it, Death Company don't have the Rage USR, they have the Black Rage non-universal special rule. And since according to you every model in a unit needs to have a non universal special rule in order for the *unit* to count as having it, then DC + Chaplain (non-Lemartes of course) doesn't have Black Rage. So they don't have Rage, and they now count as a scoring unit. Right?

(Unless of course there's an exception written into the Black Rage rule that makes it affect IC's joined to the unit, which I can't check up on while I'm at work, lol)

So I take a unit of Black Templar assault troops, who have Deep Strike listed as one of their special rules, and attach a bike riding IC. Instant deep striking bike rider, because the unit is listed as having the non-USR rule, Deep Strike.

But, if I understand puma317's position:
Take Death Company unit, give all of the models in the unit jump packs, attach non-jump pack IC => Descent of Angels doesn't work because it's given by the wargear to only part of the squad.
Take Assault Squad, with or without the jump packs, attach non-jump pack IC => Descent of Angels works because it's written in the unit entry.

Is that correct?

Scott-S6 wrote:If the librarian did not have the rule (e.g. termie librarian deep striking with jump pack honour guard) then the unit would lose the special rule.

Not according to the BA codex....

Solkan, no that is not correct. DoA is useless without the ability to Deepstrike. I fail to see your point.

The Jump Pack confers the rule. Just like the ability to DS.

Lots of weirdness in YMDC today.

solkan wrote:So I take a unit of Black Templar assault troops, who have Deep Strike listed as one of their special rules, and attach a bike riding IC. Instant deep striking bike rider, because the unit is listed as having the non-USR rule, Deep Strike.

I assume you mean without looking at the FAQ

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: Can a unit Deep Strike if only some of the models in
it have the deep strike special rule? (p95)
A: No.

While I don't speak for puma, what I'm getting at is that this situation is not adequately covered in the rules or in the FAQs. There is no general rule to deal with units where some have a non-USR special rule and others don't, and there is no specific rule about what to with DoA when some have it and some don't. Yes, there are rules and rulings for how it works for other rules and abilities (such as DS, " * " USRs, Power from Pain, Stealth, etc.) but the best you can get from those is an inference on how you think it should probably work, which certainly is not RAW (as per tenent 4 of YMDC). I have no issue with anyone offering their opinion on how they think it should work or how they would handle the situation in game, but don't try to pass it off as RAW when the specific situation clearly is not covered by the rulebook or the FAQs.

FWIW, I would probably play it the same as you, but I'm not going to tell people that that's the only correct way to play it.

Related question - Eldar Striking Scorpion Exarch can take Shadowstrike, which grants Infiltrate. Normally Infiltrate is lost if joined by an IC, BUT Shadowstrike states that the ability cannot affect an Autarch. Does this mean if a Farseer joins the group, it can Infiltrate?

Happyjew wrote:Related question - Eldar Striking Scorpion Exarch can take Shadowstrike, which grants Infiltrate. Normally Infiltrate is lost if joined by an IC, BUT Shadowstrike states that the ability cannot affect an Autarch. Does this mean if a Farseer joins the group, it can Infiltrate?

It states a squad, not a unit though

Happyjew wrote:Related question - Eldar Striking Scorpion Exarch can take Shadowstrike, which grants Infiltrate. Normally Infiltrate is lost if joined by an IC, BUT Shadowstrike states that the ability cannot affect an Autarch. Does this mean if a Farseer joins the group, it can Infiltrate?

Normally a model granting Infiltrate to the squad will grant it to an attached IC, and allow the squad to Infiltrate.

However, Eldar are an exception. Farseers never gain any benefits from Exarch Powers. Check out p21 of Eldar Codex under Exarch Powers.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:If the librarian did not have the rule (e.g. termie librarian deep striking with jump pack honour guard) then the unit would lose the special rule.

Not according to the BA codex....

Really? So a unit consisting of five models with deepstrike and one unit without deepstrike can still deepstrike?