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So, as some of you may have seen, I've been considering a new list. I'm reluctant to break down and take the optimal list laid out by Dash. Not that there's anything wrong with that list, it's gold from where DE stand, but I want something different but still deadly and very comp. This is my first revision, in three stage progression. Say whatever you like about it, I'll be testing it for some time.

1500
HQ: 180
Haemonculus x3, Liquifier x3 (180)

TROOPS: 618
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)

ELITES:
True Born x4, Blaster x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)
True Born x4, Blaster x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

1750
HQ: 330
The Duke (150)
Haemonculus x3, Liquifier x3 (180)

TROOPS: 618
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)

ELITES: 453
True Born x3, Blasters x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)
True Born x3, Blasters x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)
True Born x3, Blasters x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

TOTAL: 1746

2000
HQ: 330
The Duke (150)
Haemonculus x3, Liquifier x3 (180)

TROOPS: 868
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x10, Haywire Grenades, Hydras x2, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (250)

ELITES: 453
True Born x3, Blasters x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)
True Born x3, Blasters x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)
True Born x3, Blasters x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

TOTAL: 1996

Though, after talking to a buddy, I may already be changing them.

All in all not to badd...I don't get why aethersails or trophies on the wych raiders, and Is the Heaktrix one of the 8? If not I would bump them up by 1 to 9 (inclluding hekatrix) plus the Haemy...also why raiders for the Trueborn? I get not wanting to go with the cookie cutter but taking some inspiration from it as it would save you some points.
Second List: Same concerns. Also why 3 Blasterborn now instead of 4?
Third List: Same concerns as the second list.
I get it seems like alot of criticism but there's alot there to talk about.

No, I'm glad you're bringing these thing up. This is what it's all about. I'm trying to make wyche cult work. So, fire away. Lets brainstorm. . .and stuff.

Aethersails: In every game that I've used Aethersails they've worked excellence. They have always placed me directly into the enemies face for an easy turn 2 assault, and have in fact won me games. They're dirt cheap and get me where I need to be fast. This army is going to need to get into multi-charge range immediately. If I get sacked outside of charge range, I'm pretty certain this army will fail.

Gruesome Trophies: Again, cheap upgrades. I expect some of my raiders will blow up, and they will no doubt. I don't want to fail that critical LD check and have a unit of wyches, or worse, more than one, pinned, unable to strike. I need every bit of this payload to hit home. The trophies will help me stay up and running.

Raiders for TrueBorn: Every extra lance is a good thing. It gives me a better chance at cracking transports. This is good for my wyches. I thought this choice was logical.

Wyches: There are 8 wyches per unit, that includes the Hekatrix. A hammy will go with each unit, and the Duke will run shotgun with one of them.

Oh, and just for viewing pleasure:

Lances/Blasters:
1500: 22
1750: 24
2000: 25

As you see, I've still got plenty of lance power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talking more with a friend, I've come to see the Duke is unnecessary. I've removed him and added more power to the lists.

1500
HQ: 180
Haemonculus x3, Liquifier x3 (180)

TROOPS: 618
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (206)

ELITES: 356
True Born x4, Blaster x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)
True Born x4, Blaster x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

TOTAL: 1499

1750
HQ: 180
Haemonculus x3, Liquifier x3 (180)

TROOPS: 684
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hydra, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (228)
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hydra, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (228)
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hydra, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (228)

ELITES: 534
True Born x4, Blasters x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)
True Born x4, Blasters x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)
True Born x4, Blasters x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

TOTAL: 1743

2000
HQ: 240
Haemonculus x3, Liquifier x3 (180)
Haemonculus, Liquifier (60)

TROOPS: 872
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (218)
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (218)
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (218)
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (218)

ELITES: 534
True Born x4, Raider w/Flickers, Gruesome Trophies (183)
True Born x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)
True Born x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

TOTAL: 1996

Total Lance Power:
1500: 22
1750: 27
2000: 28

Im not very experienced with de but one thing that i noticed is your probably joining the hammis up with the whyches for feel no pain but unfortunately you do not get that save if the attack... or shot has a better ap value then your armour then no save and with no armour at all... Its usefullness is limeted, also in the occasion your skimmer gets immobilised wrecked or explodes after moving atleast 24 inches all riding said transport insta die because of the pure speed in which there bodys are being hurled, imho i find the deployment of two portals in enemy territory helps tremendously. So then you can charge the turn they come in if their placement was wise, also a unit of scourges with lances has proven time and time again to be a god send. And yes i realise insertion can be very tricky.

tau_etheral wrote:Im not very experienced with de but one thing that i noticed is your probably joining the hammis up with the whyches for feel no pain but unfortunately you do not get that save if the attack... or shot has a better ap value then your armour then no save and with no armour at all... Its usefullness is limeted, also in the occasion your skimmer gets immobilised wrecked or explodes after moving atleast 24 inches all riding said transport insta die because of the pure speed in which there bodys are being hurled, imho i find the deployment of two portals in enemy territory helps tremendously. So then you can charge the turn they come in if their placement was wise, also a unit of scourges with lances has proven time and time again to be a god send. And yes i realise insertion can be very tricky.

If you don't know the rules enough, don't post.

FNP is only prohibited by Power Weapons, AP1 and AP2. (some other exceptions apply)

Your dudes only die if you yourself get into difficult terrain in the same turn when moving flat out, shooting in the next turn doesn't kill your guys when the raider blows up,regardless of the outcome on the VPCH.

@tau_etheral

As Alkasyn points out, it's pretty clear you have little grasp of the rules. I would appreciate it if you could, at the very least, finish reading the rulebook before posting on something you have no knowledge of. At the very worst, you have damaged my post, because people may actually believe what you're saying. At best, people will whole completely ignore the ignorant bugle call you just made. What useful information I can draw from your post pertains to webways. . .I think, and scourges. Both are something to consider. In fact, while brushing my teeth today, the thought stuck me "Wyches get close. . .I have hammies with them. . .hammies can take webways. . .I could make a mix list. . .maybe. . ." This is an experiment. I imagine I'll be trying out several builds before I get something I like, however my last 2k list was very solid IMO.

@Alkasyn

Thank you for preserving the sanctity of this thread. How do you feel about the lists?

Gosh, such harshness towards newer players...really necessary?

Have you considered Shock-Prows on the Raiders? Tank-shocking someone off the board on Turn 1 seems very doable, perhaps combined with Torment Grenade Launcher coverage?

Something you said jumps out at me...if the Ldr tests you're looking to pass are the pinning tests from the Raiders blowing up...the Trophies are gone with the Raider, so won't help. Just a thought.

I used to run many Wyches before the new Codex, and had more success than with the new Wyches. I really think the Troop wyches are sub-par assault units. Their only saving grace is, IMO, their 4++. They are pretty survivable in melee, but struggle to generate wounds and die by the handful to shooting. My math-hammer says the wyches hit marines, kill 3, lose 2, only win by 1, then it's a few turns of handfuls of dice to see who wins. Another idea for TGL, as if the Raider lives, you've got that extra -1 Ldr.

Good luck. Anxious to hear how this works out!

No he is wanting to reroll a failed Ld in CC from the raider he hopped out of, in my experience you tend to run from the raider and then assault and thus would be out of the 6" bubble.
As you said you have alot of DL and blasters so I still don't see why the raiders are neccessary for the trueborn. Venoms are cheaper and can lay down some impressive firepower to soften up certain squads before the wyches hit to impove chances to live. The tank shock a unit off the board is not that easy if you assume standard deployment plus rotations (I know some people will argue that but I can argue RAW back so we'll say you start the tip of the raider 15" in. You then turbo boost another 24" for a total of 39." Yes you should be across the board but you still have to hope an opponent is a) directly across from you and b) If they DoG you then you loose the squad as well and c) if hope they are close enough to the board edge d) they may just pass Ld and then bring you down next turn say an autocannon or assault cannon, then they level bolters on wyches...not pretty.
I'm just not gonna touch the FnP guy...just please reread the FnP rules.
Aethersails IMHO get you too far, you can typically get a turn 2 assault without them 12" (deployment) + 12" (move) + 12" (move) + 2" (disembark) + 6" (assault) + d6" (run) =44" + d6" assault range for 2 turns and that is assuming you opponent didn't move.
I will agree that Raiders for wyches = good thing. I might consider bumping those guys up to 9 plus Haemy. If you want the duke (he is great here) then try and fit in trueborn with carbines and 2 SC otherwise he'll be wasted on trueborn but the 2d6 on the drug table is an insane advantage, but I also see the value in Haemys for FnP!

Akroma06 wrote:No he is wanting to reroll a failed Ld in CC from the raider he hopped out of

...from the OP's second post:

Gruesome Trophies: Again, cheap upgrades. I expect some of my raiders will blow up, and they will no doubt. I don't want to fail that critical LD check and have a unit of wyches, or worse, more than one, pinned, unable to strike. I need every bit of this payload to hit home. The trophies will help me stay up and running.

For the Tank Shock, I'm sorry I wasn't clear, but I mean with the use of Aethersails getting to shock on turn 1. Again, sorry for confusion. to respond directly to your points: a) with average 7" aethersail roll plus 24", it's not that hard to contact; b) very true, the equipment would have to be considered. Certainly a gamble, but damned amsuing; c) if pitched battle, it's likely the fleeing squad will be too close to rally; d) they are of course very likely to pass Ld, the TGL helps, and whether the raider tank shocked or not they're still going to shoot at the wyches...right? I mean, why wouldn't they shoot them? Why would the target priority by different? He's already using Aethersails to flat-out in their face anyway. I'm simply saying if he's doing that, having SP and TGL might be useful sometimes to run somebody off the table on turn 1. If not turn 1, they're still incredibly useful for pushing people off objectives later. If they fail the Ld and run off, great, if not, at least you're able to control objectives easier. Just a thought. A nice cheap piece of upgrade that's proven pretty handy for me.

I will give the pushing off of objectives as that let me beat some Daemons in a tournament.
All these are just ideas, but if these have worked well for you then go for it!

I'm surprised to see all-Raider forces and no Venoms. As a long term DE player (3rd and 4th ed), this is the way to go in a mech environment.

My wyches need to stab people in the face. All raiders will help crack transports, open transports give me something fleshy to crash into, something fleshy means my wyches will survive much longer. It all sounds good to me.

I really like that last list - I think you should be running no less than 4 troop choices even at 1750.

Wych squad size is fine but I do not think you will notice a difference between 8 or 9 wyches.

Don't care for the hydra g's but that is just preference - I just like the nets better as I have no problem using wyches to charge dreads and IC's.

I too like aether sails but I tend to use them on units that do not have fleet of foot. Wracks and Grotesques need to get as close as possible to where you want them to charge when their raider crashes. Wyches and the like with fleet (and especially if you get the fleet drug) have a better charge bubble. After they flat out at the enemy you should be on their deployment zone line anyway and even from there the wyches with fleet could reach the opponent board edge easily. Very marginal though and is a small matter really.

Hope to hear a battle report sometime soon!

First game done with the favored 2k wyche cult.

Results: Terrible. . .

I can't even begin to describe my frustration. My wyches got obliterated in assault by termagants, and a pretty small unit at that. I failed 6/10 4+ invuln/4+ fnp saves, and unit was routed and off they ran. 2 tervigons took 4 turns of concentrated lance/blaster fire to bring down. For sh$t sake, they didn't even have cover. One wyche unit wiped a unit in assault and then got shot to death. Another wyche unit got demeched and sat on my objective. I managed to pull off a tie. But it was luck. I was hoping my poor die rolling would continue, and it did, when I rolled the 900th 1 of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From this alone. I can see so many flaws with the wyche cult. Wyches cannot withstand fire outside of combat, in any measure. Essentially, you're at the mercy of someone elses terrible rolling to survive a match. This doesn't bode well for the list. I already want to jump ship and go with something else. Perhaps, with my other list, being mixed it performed much much better on average, even with my regular garbage rollling. Bah. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What poured salt onto my wounds, My Hekatri, after swinging 11 times, scored 1 wound. . .on termagants. . .*sigh*

Grim Smasha wrote:First game done with the favored 2k wyche cult.

Results: Terrible. . .

I can't even begin to describe my frustration. My wyches got obliterated in assault by termagants, and a pretty small unit at that. I failed 6/10 4+ invuln/4+ fnp saves, and unit was routed and off they ran. 2 tervigons took 4 turns of concentrated lance/blaster fire to bring down. For sh$t sake, they didn't even have cover. One wyche unit wiped a unit in assault and then got shot to death. Another wyche unit got demeched and sat on my objective. I managed to pull off a tie. But it was luck. I was hoping my poor die rolling would continue, and it did, when I rolled the 900th 1 of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From this alone. I can see so many flaws with the wyche cult. Wyches cannot withstand fire outside of combat, in any measure. Essentially, you're at the mercy of someone elses terrible rolling to survive a match. This doesn't bode well for the list. I already want to jump ship and go with something else. Perhaps, with my other list, being mixed it performed much much better on average, even with my regular garbage rollling. Bah. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What poured salt onto my wounds, My Hekatri, after swinging 11 times, scored 1 wound. . .on termagants. . .*sigh*

Well, you could consider taking a Wrack unit for a different type of a Troop unit, not really that durable when shot at (but then again, there's no durable Dark Eldar, I guess). They are decent in CC and although lacking the 4++ they have poisoned weapons that often get a reroll, you just need to have a Houmonculus with them. I'll be trying such a list myself when I finish painting Wracks.

Your problem is you went the "themed" route. I never go above 3 Haemi/Wyches units, and at 2k I think my list only runs 2 units of Wyches and 2 units of Blasterborn, but I'll have to check on that when I get back home. You have no versatility in your list. You have no Baron, Beastmasters, Venoms (personally I put troops in Raiders, and elites in Venoms), Wracks, or Warriors. You need to mix in a little to have an effective army.

Part of the mixture is psychological, and makes your opponent worry about what he should shoot. For instance when you have Beastmasters on the table, and it's a 5 objective mission, your opponent is more than welcome to shoot at your troops. Although, he runs the risk of having a Beastmaster unit in his face at full strength.

Your Wyches can't be everywhere on the board, which is where the Venoms come in. Just 2-3 can snipe a Longfang squad or that 1 marine that got away. Just consider a few of these things when you tweak your list again.

Just growing pains - you made a list that looked great against mech and you got mis-matched against horde - welcome to my world.

One unit that I have decided that needs to be in a list is a shooting unit that can pour out the pain on any given infantry unit. I often like to make 1 ravager a 3 disintegrator kind. This would be more like replacing the venom's splinter cannons role with that of a 3 dissy ravager and even disintegrators can damage light transports albeit lightly.

And it doesn't have to be a ravager, even a razorwing with whatever missiles or a trueborn squad that has splinter cannons instead of blasters (and on a venom instead of a raider). I am thinking of using 5 wracks on a venom in that role but this is purely experimental.

Yes, themed means less competitive but this is where I think the general's experience takes over, you just have to know what you should shoot and what you should charge. I may not be the best general to be saying this but I truly believe there is an adjustment period that you will have to get used to when you take a themed list.

I say do not be discouraged, get yourself a unit that is anti-horde (or anti-infantry) like beastmasters and venoms are in Dash's list and keep trying.

I'm pretty sure you asked me to look at the 2000 list, so here it is (next time link me - I need all the help I can get

Grim Smasha wrote:Haemonculus x4, Liquifier x4

Fine.

Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hydra, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider, Flickers, Aethersails, Gruesome Trophies (228)

I like these just fine. I approve of the Hydra inclusion once you've maxed the squad numbers in the Raider. I will add myself to the 'meh' on Aethersails crowd. You deploy 12", flat out 24" move 6" run 1-6" assault 6" that gives you a 49-54" bubble presuming the enemy pops your transport before your next turn...what part of the board can you not get to with 50" of movement? The Aethersails strike me as a crutch that can be overcome via better deployment. Gruesome Talismans are okay, but I'm starting to look at stuff like that plus the Aethersails, and wondering if you could work in another full unit that could be inflicting damage on the enemy.

ELITES: 534
True Born x4, Raider w/Flickers, Gruesome Trophies (183)
True Born x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)
True Born x4, Raider w/Flickers (178)

You know I can't look seriously at the one squad with Gruesome Trophies.

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

Ravilicious.

Okay, so your "problem" is limited horde control (4 teardrops and 36 Wyches is nothing to sneeze at, but they will have trouble fully controlling horde. Your other "problem" is running a list that's very alpha centric and running it sans Baron. Now, you can certainly win sans Baron (I'm living proof) but since the Baron is best paired with Beasts, and since Beasts are an excellent anti-horde tool I think that becomes the immediate focus in my mind of how to solve the weaknesses in the list.

That does require you to free up about 261 points, which you could do by sacking one Trueborn out of each squad, dropping your sails and talismans, and (avoiding mental math) maybe the Wych Weapons too...? I dunno, I'm not pulling up Army Builder right now.

If you don't want to go the Beast route I still think, at the very least, the points put into the Sails could be better used elsewhere. Whether in Night Shields to help weaken alpha strike if you lack first turn, shock prows to allow you tank shock options, or some extra tools on your Haems (like the CoM or Shattershard) these would at least all increase the general threat radius of your army, and at least Shock Prows would give you some options to frell with Horde (though most Horde is fearless, but at least you could push them around).

Those are my thoughts.
Most of your post batrep advice (besides Kwi) I would advise you to take with a few grains of salt as I don't really agree with it myself and I don't think it's attacking the actual issue.

I'll also note, in your batrep you explicitly outline a couple of points where you had some really silly bad dice - and I would advise you not to judge a list on one performance (good or bad) especially if the dice felt wonky. Give it at least 5 fights and see how it's playing once you're more use to it and also once you see it versus a variety of armies so you can have a better idea of what the actual issues are.

I'm considering the naked approach. Stripping off plenty of stuff and so on. I, also, immiedietly considered a beastpack for better horde control and some beef on the field. Points are going to be the most difficult portion of it. Over all, in every game that I've used them in, agonizers have been next to useless. I'm thinking about poison blades.

I'll admit I have a love/hate relation with Agonisers.

That said here's my basic breakdown;

vs. GEQ you don't need to worry, because the other Wyches can push through the assault by themselves.

vs. MEQ the Agoniser is super useful as, by itself, it generally does half the damage to the squad, and is vital to the tarpit.

If you feel you need more oomph in assault, either you aren't sending in enough Wyches - sometimes dual assault really is a smart idea, or you need to be more relaxed about the tarpit nature of their assaults when they nickel and dime down enemy squads.

Thor, click my list link and check the new list at the bottom. I love your commentary. I agree with your judgement with aggys, though, as you'll see, I have a master plan with them and beasts in my new list. Wyche testing will continue with my next ladder match.