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So I'm taking a pair of Exterminators in my 'Ardboyz list. This is a forgone conclusion. I'm principally doing it because I've been an advocate for the Exterminator for a while now, have had success with them in a semi-competitive environment, and want to see how they perform at the next level. That being said, I want to use them right, so I'm asking for some ideas from Dakka to see if they have spotted anything I could have missed.

Givens:
1.) There are two, and they are armed with sponson heavy bolters, for a grand total squadron cost of 340 points.
2.) They have three primary roles in the army, taking out light vehicles, batting cleanup for the template weapons, and not dying.
3.) They have infantry support.

When I need to kill an infantry squad, the templates in the army hit first, then this squadron fires, concentrating its shots into the remainder. When I need to fight mechanized lists, this unit can open up transports and then I can hit them with my template weapons. I am considering putting even more points into this and upgrading one tank to Pask. This would give a substantial increase in vehicle-killing power, and an even bigger relative increase in turns where the squadron suffers attacks dealing only a single glancing or penetrating hit. In this case, however, I worry that Pask is optimized for targets that the stock Exterminator is not, and I might be wasting the second tank.

When stationary, the non-Pask version of the squadron puts out 11 wounds on average vs. T4. This is probably 4 marines or 2 terminators, and is extremely resistant to long range anti-tank. The large number of dice being thrown give me an increased chance of rolling average. These factors combined make for a unit that is very reliable over the course of a game. Sadly, due to the damage tables in 5th edition, even this unit is not overkill vs. AV 11, getting an expected two penetrating hits and one glance from the autocannons, and another glance from the heavy bolters. This should pretty reliably kill an AV 11 target, but it's not guaranteed. Is 340 points too high a price to pay for reliability? Looking at the 'Ardboyz missions, the unit can help preserve both Kill Points and Victory Points, and is well equipped to root out backfield objective holders.

Weaknesses are obviously a high points cost, and vulnerability to assault. Squadroning reduces tank durability by a bit, but perhaps increases the firepower over time as any single hits can go on a previously damaged tank, leaving one free to keep firing. To protect from assault and deep-striking meltas, I am relying on 30 infantry (already claiming my own objectives and/or firing heavy weapons, so they aren't dedicated tank support) as well as chimeras that can provide cover from major long-ranged threats and hit close-range threats with hull heavy flamers.

So, I ask you again, is there any other value in this unit that I'm missing? Any major weaknesses? Is it complete folly?

Thanks for your time.

Its hard to analyze one unit without seeing the entire picture or list.

The problem I see with Exterminators is the existence of the Hydra. For 225 points you can have 3 Hydras with Hull Heavy Bolter. Not as durable but they put out more TL strength 7 shots. Your really overpaying for Exterminator durability. 2 Hydras gives you the same auto cannon shots while giving you more points for other things.

IMO Pask is never worth it he makes an already expensive tank even more expensive so it hurts even more when it is destroyed.

I didn't want this to get into a discussion of lists, but I have given a general context as to how I am planning to use the unit. I also didn't intend for this to be an Exterminator vs. Hydra thread. I just want to analyze the uses of Exterminators in a squadron.


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As far as Pask is concerned, I tend to agree with you, but as part of a squadron, the other tank can take the brunt of the damage, and at armor 14, it takes a huge amount of fire to get through the two tanks. Massed meltas and close combat will, of course, but with infantry bubblewrapping the squadron, that usually means you have had a collapse of the line, which is a bigger problem than immobilized=destroyed results.

I love exterminators myself. I have been using them since they were created in the first third edition codex. I kept playing them after they got dropped from the second codex, I just used the old rules. In all those games there has never been a situation where they havent been able to do something. With the advent of the Hydra they do fill a similar role, but the exterminator has higher armour. So you decide whether its worth it to you.

As for Pask, I love him. He turns your exteminator into a very capable tank/Monstrous Creature killrt, and even better infantry killer. So I find that 50 points is definitely worth it

I like the exterminators idea. Hydras may be more efficient in some ways, less efficient in others. So, take both squads.

Pask is absolutely worth it. People think he is overpriced because they normally see him inside a vanquisher, and the vanquisher is not that efficient, so they knee-jerk that it is Pask that is a bad choice. In reality, it is the vanquisher rules and cost that are the problem.

Regarding other weapons, I would also give them HK missiles and possibly multi-meltas instead of the HB sponsons. Alternatively, take no sponsons but 3 exterminators. Then you are more mobile and leaner physically. LC in all three, obviously.

I find Exterminators a really hard sell when a single Exterminator costs as much as 2 Hydras. Exterminator is not twice as durable and the two hydras have better firepower and are better vs skimmers moving fast or scout bikers.

Exterminators really needed to cost 120 points or so. Your basic Predator is only 10 more points then the Hydra and has av13/11/10. You are really overpaying for the better armor.

The real disadvantage of the Hydra here is they have to stay still to fire to full effect having 2 sets of auto cannons and a heavy bolter while the Exterminator can move 6 and fire its auto cannons and a single heavy bolter.

I know the concept of making your points back in victory points killed is a somewhat dated 4th edition concept but Exterminators really fail the making your points back test. In Kill points or victory points games they really don't dish out their points worth of damage.

Pask makes tanks cost too much at 200+ points per tank. You really feel the hurt if you lose that tank.

If your going to insist on taking Exterminators. Singles exterminator heavy bolter hull so you don't waste too much if you need to shoot at armor. bs 3 las cannon isn't worth the points. I really hate squadrons myself so wouldn't run a squadron except for cheap vehicles like Hydras.

If you mathhammer it, you will see that a Paxterminator gives you twice as many pens on a rhino than a hydra does, at well more than double the cost. When you normalize for pens, Paxterminator is still more expensive than the hydra but is significantly more survivable due to AV14 on the front. In large games ( hard boyz is at 2500) where you can effectively bubble-wrap the tanks against CC and half-range meltas, long-range fire is the only way to try to shut down those guns, so AV14 does well against most armies.

Really, the hydra is too cheap, not the other way around.

I have done the mathhammer, and it does speak pretty favorably to Pask. My main concerns are that with the second exterminator it is closer to overkill. My second concern is that he's only really useful if the tank doesn't move, and with transports often moving 12", you might not get a shot on the one you really want to kill.

One of the things that really sells my on the squadron of two is that you can put enough wounds down to make every model in a 10 man, T4 unit take a save. You don't get this from lone tanks. This is why I went with the tri-heavy bolter arrangement. I'm intrigued by the idea of LCs instead, giving up dakka to focus on mobile vehicle supression. I'll have to think on that more. I'd never considered giving any Leman Russ a hunter-killer, but I suppose on Pask it's actually a good buy. You want to stay still to make use of his special ability anyway, and the HK is BS4 and effective S9 in his hands.

I'm now having visions of an over-the top gunboat Exterminator with hull LC, a HK missile, and plasma cannon sponsons (I think multi-meltas might be too short range for stationary work, but I might be wrong).

I don't think the Predator-Exterminator comparison favors the Predator at all 14/13 is a whole different class of armor than 13/11, and the Exterminator gets more than double the expected AC hits for less than double the price (exactly double if you throw in HB sponsons on the LRX), for only one heavy support slot.

I understand the weaknesses of squadroning, but I actually think they're less of a problem with heavy tanks than with lighter vehicles. Sure the light vehicles are cheaper, and each loss is less of a blow, but there's just not that many things that will be putting meaningful hits on AV14 at range.

Have you considered the option of a hull lascannon on your Pask exterminator instead of the HB sponsons?

The lumbering behemoth rule means that the tank can always fire both the turret and the lascannon at combat speed, and the str9 gun synergizes really well with Pask's antitank ability to give you a nice BS4, Str10 antitank shot to really put the last nail into that rhino or squadron of AR10 vehicles. Also the range of the lascannon meshes better with the exterminator autocannon than either of the 36" range sponson options.

And if I remember my point costs correctly, it actually costs 5 points less than the HB sponsons.

You are correct on points, but the issue is, Pask doesn't get the strength bump or re-roll vs MCs unless his tank is stationary, so combat speed performance (the normal way I rate my Russes) is less important than stationary performance. I'm not going to drop 50 points on a BS4 upgrade.

I had rather convinced myself that the torrent of fire squadron would be the way to go, but the more I discuss it, the more I like hull lascannons. It gives the tanks a different area of expertise, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Biophysical wrote: Pask doesn't get the strength bump or re-roll vs MCs unless his tank is stationary

Whoops, I totally missed that part. You're right.

Thanks for pointing that out before I actually put the model on the table (planning to try the unit out soon, but only as a single tank rather than a squadron). That does make heavy bolters a good option, since you need to sit still anyway.

I would consider taking only one exterminator and another different tank. Since you're likely to get at least one shake per turn, you might as well give yourself some options. Like exterminator-executioner.

That's an interesting idea, Almarine, but I'm not sure it works in practice. A canny opponent should realize that you'll put the damage on whichever tank you don't want to use next turn. If you have diverging roles for your two tanks, the off-tank will only be contributing in a limited way no matter what, even if it doesn't have to soak a hit. Therefore, opponents don't gain much by putting fire on the squadron, and their AT fire goes elsewhere.

Yeah I originally thought of it as executioner-battletank, mostly for extra protection since the executioner will be a target anyway, but they have decent target overlap as well. I guess it doesn't really help to the same degree when it's not the plasma plates you're really after.

At the risk of sounding fruity, have you ruled out punishers? Don't know how much stuff you intend to cram into your back field, but if it's a lot then they can probably do the same jobs from further up, leaving room and giving cover and what not. Their reach isn't as long and they haven't quite the same destructive potential against rhinos, but they do have a functional threat bubble and are pretty good at not dying.

I have considered the Punisher, but the Exterminator has better range, better anti-tank ability, better AP, is cheaper, and doesn't have so much fewer shots when you consider that it doesn't have to move up into range. It gets the sponsons from turn one, and doesn't then have to keep moving to avoid meltas and close combat.

Almarine wrote:
At the risk of sounding fruity, have you ruled out punishers? Don't know how much stuff you intend to cram into your back field, but if it's a lot then they can probably do the same jobs from further up, leaving room and giving cover and what not. Their reach isn't as long and they haven't quite the same destructive potential against rhinos, but they do have a functional threat bubble and are pretty good at not dying.

I have considered them and the number of shots sound impressive, but when you mathhammer it, you will realize that the combo of BS3, S5, AP- is rather underwhelming. Essentially, it is for killing basic infantry that has crappy armor, but IG has a ton of shots like that already from infantry units.

A curious thing to try is to Pask the punisher. Then the BS becomes 4 and the effective S is 6. Now that is something that can do a number on light transports. 20 shots at BS4 means 13 hits, of which you should get 2 glances and 2 pens on a rhino or DE gunboat, or 2 glances and 4 pens on a DE transport, venom, or side chimera. That would be a lot of fun, but perhaps a questionable buy at ~ 200 pts, especially since for ~ 120 pts you can get a vendetta that does not compete for HS slots and will give you similar results against transports.

I like exterminators. I dont think they have any place in any tournament list but thats not what this is really about.

The gripe I would have here would be the same as with any leman russ in a squad. They are to easy to destroy when they are in squads. You often waste firepower as they cant split away, they get destroyed by immobilised results and it is possible for a single say vendetta to blow them both up with one volly.

The only plus is that they only give away 1 kill point when they die.

But if you are thinking of sending them to any tournaments then a squad of leman russ is never a good idea.

I know a few people who like the idea of Pask in a Punisher. My beef is that Pask's main weakness (only gets his bonuses of his tank is stationary) is doubly bad on the Punisher because it really has to move to get in range, then it will probably be moving to get good shots and avoid close ranged attacks. BS4 for its main gun is nice, but the main gun is also AP-, which against vehicles makes it good for nothing but suppression, even with Pask's penetration boost. That being said, if any tank is worth considering paying 50 points for a BS upgrade, then one with 23 shots on the move is probably the one.

I think this frequently repeated statement that squadroning makes Russes easy to destroy is a bit misleading. It certainly makes them easier to destroy, but I'd say that easy is still pretty off the mark. Let's look at the most frightening long range-AT single unit I can think of: A squadron of 3 Vendettas. I've never seen anyone use such a unit, but as far as lascannon hits/point go, there's not much better. This rather absurd unit will put about 7 hits on a Leman Russ squadron. 4 or 5 will bounce, one will probably penetrate, one will glance, and you might get another glance or penetrate. The Leman's will probably not fire, and you stand a good chance of loosing one, but that's pretty much the worst case long range AT scenario, and it's not that bad considering the points involved. The damage probably won't get through to both tanks if cover is in play. Devastators won't generally have the numbers of shots to damage both tanks. Big piles of psycannons can do better, but that stops being long range, and you get a chance to do something before the hammer falls. Again, cover makes even these units unlikely to damage both tanks.

I'll admit that the damage tables are less kind to squadrons, but you just don't get that many rolls against AV14, so it is not, in my opinion, all that bad. I think you're sort of on to something with the idea that you could waste fire with Leman Russes in squadrons, and certainly it would be ideal in most circumstances to not have squadrons, but heavy supports are limited. In my experience, with cover and dispersed formations, it takes an exceptionally lucky Leman Russ to annihilate a while squad on its own, but it is possible. Having an extra tank doesn't really change the max kill potential, but it does make crippling attacks against squads much more likely. With template tanks (admittedly not Exterminators like I'm proposing), squadroning actually increases damage against a single squad. Both tanks will resolve templates at a full size squad. This allows more rolls to wound, and makes it more likely that your opponent has to take a save on someone important.

Pask in an exterminator is attractive because of the nature of the break point between str7 and str8 long-range guns.

Those of us who have average dice luck at best know the drama of trying to come up with those 5s and 6s to get a penetrating hit on a rhino with an autocannon. If it weren't for the multiple shots, IG ballistic skill would make it pretty pointless.

But most str8 weapons only come in single-shot varieties--missiles--and/or short range like melta.

Pask in an exterminator in effect gives the turret a battery of four twinlinked, BS4 krak missiles for antitank purposes. Now you pen a rhino on a 4+, and glance it on a 3. Only the 1s and 2s bounce off. It seems like a small thing, but on a multi-shot weapon that's way better.

That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. You start thinking about it and the difference is pretty extensive. You can do things with a S8 gun that will often get 4 hits. The BS on Pask gives you about a 90% hit rate with those shots. Aside from the obvious light armor targets, AV13 isn't safe, because you'll probably get 4 chances at the 6 needed to penetrate. It even lets you do fire suppression against AV 14. You're chances of glancing are similarly solid.