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as we know, space marine chapters have to give a certain amout of there gene seed to Mars for inspection and to be the building block for new chapters.
when the High Lords decide to make a new chapter from the First Founding Legions gene seed, is it possible that they would autorise a mixing of two (or more) gene seeds eg. Imperial Fists and Blood Angels?

and would they ever use the Traitor Legions gene seed left on Terra?

They did this. It was called the Cursed Founding, and it ended horribly.

According to page 8 of Codex: Space Marines, all gene-seed goes to and comes from Terra. Mars has nothing to do with it.
A new Chapter does not have to be from the 'First Founding' or for that matter 'Second Founding' Chapters. A new Chapter could be started from a Chapter 20 times, or more, removed from the original Legion.

Each of the Second Founding Chapters was derived directly from an original First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene-seed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

Codex: Space Marine, page 8

Nobody who has messed with Gene-seed has had a good result. See Corex, The Cursed Founding and Fabius Bile.

To elaborate, at the 21st (or Cursed) founding - the largest since the second - the Imperium attempted to tinker with various chapters' geneseeds to remove flaws or further enhance their potential, for various reasons (either the loss of technological knowledge over five millennia or the interference of the ruinous powers) many of the resultant chapters have either suffered unexpected mutations (Flame Falcons, Sons of Anteus, Black Dragons) or catastrophic misfortune (Lamenters, Fire Hawks). Whether the latter can in fact be attributed to their geneseed, or to coincidence remains unknown.

I can recall mention of a chapter founded from both Ultramarine and Dark Angels - supposedly the most stable geneseed; I forget what they were called, but I'm fairly sure they met with a horrible and cryptic fate.

Whether the Imperium's preference for keeping strains of geneseed "pure" stems from superstition, (pseudo)scientific fact or just an arbitrary decision of Guilliman's is, to the best of my knowledge, unrecorded. Certainly, however, it would appear to be common policy; presumably a new chapter's neophytes are trained and initially led by veterans of a chapter of the same genetic line.

As to the traitors' geneseed, it has long be rumoured but remains unconfirmed that the Blood Ravens were founded either from loyalist Thousand Sons or from their geneseed. Certain other chapters of unknown antecedence have been the focus of similar speculation by players - the Space Sharks, for instance have been mooted, on wholly circumstantial evidence, to be loyalist World Eaters.

because of the way geneseed multiplies, you can't cross different strains.

Geneseed is always from one chapter or another. overtime, a chapter's geneseed will change to be a unique combination of genes, but it is impossable for a single marine to be from 2 different sources.

a chapter could have a mix of geneseed, but the different lines would never mix.

Geneseed can best be described as Asexual reproduction in that only a single individual is needed for continuation.

English Assassin wrote:To elaborate, at the 21st (or Cursed) founding - the largest since the second - the Imperium attempted to tinker with various chapters' geneseeds to remove flaws or further enhance their potential, for various reasons (either the loss of technological knowledge over five millennia or the interference of the ruinous powers) many of the resultant chapters have either suffered unexpected mutations (Flame Falcons, Sons of Anteus, Black Dragons) or catastrophic misfortune (Lamenters, Fire Hawks).

Does it really count as a loss of technological knowledge if no one's ever been able to do it? The Emperor is the only person to meddle with the geneseed technology without things going horribly... let's say 'awry,' and it wasn't a 100% success even in his case.

Grey Templar wrote:because of the way geneseed multiplies, you can't cross different strains.

Geneseed is always from one chapter or another. overtime, a chapter's geneseed will change to be a unique combination of genes, but it is impossable for a single marine to be from 2 different sources.

a chapter could have a mix of geneseed, but the different lines would never mix.

Geneseed can best be described as Asexual reproduction in that only a single individual is needed for continuation.

Aside from the fact that Honsou of the Iron Warriors had a combination of Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists geneseed, this pretty much hits it spot on.

That is either the author not knowing his stuff or some chaos trickery.

Grey Templar wrote:That is either the author not knowing his stuff or some chaos trickery.

I think its the latter rather than the former, but you never specified what kind of marine this couldn't occur to, just that it was impossible. I was proving you wrong, hence Honsou.

And it definitely wasn't a case of a dumb author, the series of books featuring Honsou are some of the best written that BL has ever produced, etc. I think Honsou was even referenced in one of the Codecies, although that could be wishful thinking on my part.

Ok, geneseed mixing won't ever happen with conventional marines loyal to the imperium.

with Chaos, anything is possable. I do agree that the books are very good. but it is possable for even Graham to get something wrong. this is only a minor detail anyway.

And it definitely wasn't a case of a dumb author, the series of books featuring Honsou are some of the best written that BL has ever produced, etc. I think Honsou was even referenced in one of the Codecies, although that could be wishful thinking on my part.

Doesn't matter, a BL novel is not canon. The prime directive of a BL novel is to tell a good story, not match up with a Codex.

BL books, while they arn't Cannon, are still a reliable source of information. taken with salt where needed of course.

Certain authors are most certaintly NOT cannon(like Goto) and others are reliable for the most part(like McNeil and Abnett. Abnett gets the name of weapons confused sometimes, but that is forgivable)



GW has said that the story of the books isn't always cannon and should be treated like a good folk tale. things may get exagerated or mistold with each retelling. the evens may not have happened, but the descriptions will be seen as accurate(like a marine's head getting blown off by a maxed out lasgun will be true, but the actual battle may have been even more hard fought or longer. the marine may have not died immediatly or may already have been wounded)

ToBeWilly wrote:According to page 8 of Codex: Space Marines, all gene-seed goes to and comes from Terra. Mars has nothing to do with it.

The codex only gives a very small piece of the story:
A.that all geneseed (including traitor although this is inaccessible) is stored on Terra, obviously due to the fact that it is the safest place in the IoM.
B.that Terra has full control of when new chapters are formed

these points are supported by other codex fluff, other fluff clearly tells us that Mars is involved, they are the ones the test for purity and once ordered create new chapters (it's pretty obvious that the only sanctioned scientists would be the ones to do this).

This separate allows no one organisation to use the space marines as their own personal guard

What they don't tell you is that Chuck Norris is the result of a mixing of all the geneseeds. He came back in time to make sure that the Emperor was successful in creating the Space Marines just to realize that he IS the Emperor. He can also divide by zero.

BluntmanDC wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:According to page 8 of Codex: Space Marines, all gene-seed goes to and comes from Terra. Mars has nothing to do with it.

The codex only gives a very small piece of the story:
A.that all geneseed (including traitor although this is inaccessible) is stored on Terra, obviously due to the fact that it is the safest place in the IoM.
B.that Terra has full control of when new chapters are formed

these points are supported by other codex fluff, other fluff clearly tells us that Mars is involved, they are the ones the test for purity and once ordered create new chapters (it's pretty obvious that the only sanctioned scientists would be the ones to do this).

This separate allows no one organisation to use the space marines as their own personal guard

I have never read anything that says the Ad Mech has anything to do with it. The only place I've heard this is here on Dakka.
In Codex Imperials, it tells us that each Chapter's Apothacarion is responsible for genetic history and testing. Nothing about sending anything to the Ad Mech. In fact every edition of Space Marine codex since then, excluding the current one, mentions the Apothcarion being responsible for genetic history and purity. It is only in the current Codex: Space Marine that states:

This makes perfect sense to me, Space Marines were developed and created on Earth. Why would the IOM send, debatably, it most precious commodity to a sovereign entity. That would make the Fabricator General, a High Lord of Terra by the way, the most powerful man in the galaxy. He would have direct control of the Titan Legions and the Space Marines. To me, it doesn't make any sense for the Ad Mech to have anything to do with it, and fluff backs that up.

Edit: for clarity

While the Adeptus Terra does control the Geneseed stocks, they still need the Ad Mech to operate the advanced machinery which does the actual testing and storage.

The Techpriests are more like Labtechs who do the actual work while the Adeptus Terra has overseers to call the shots.

"The Steel Confessors Space Marine Chapter had very inauspicious beginnings when it was first created during the 19th Founding in the 36th Millennium. In an effort to better protect their Forge Worlds and private interests, the Adeptus Mechanicus took it upon themselves to create a secret Chapter of Space Marines that only bore loyalty to Mars and the Cult Mechanicus. Using Iron Hands’ gene-seed collected from that Chapter's tithes to Mars, the Mechanicus began work on a Chapter that was intended to rival the strength and power of any other Imperial force in the galaxy."

thats the techmites for you.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:That is either the author not knowing his stuff or some chaos trickery.

I think its the latter rather than the former, but you never specified what kind of marine this couldn't occur to, just that it was impossible. I was proving you wrong, hence Honsou.

And it definitely wasn't a case of a dumb author, the series of books featuring Honsou are some of the best written that BL has ever produced, etc. I think Honsou was even referenced in one of the Codecies, although that could be wishful thinking on my part.

To expand on this, it says that the Iron Warriors stole the Fist gene seed as an insult to them and then use it to create new chaos marines to bolster the strength of their legion. The new marines are called "half breeds" and are shown very little respect by their Iron Warrior peers. Honsou had a very hard time reaching his position of power because he did not have a Iron Warriors gene seed.

chaos0xomega wrote:Aside from the fact that Honsou of the Iron Warriors had a combination of Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists geneseed, this pretty much hits it spot on.

Of course, his early efforts resulted in Space Marines with no skin, so even that was far from a success. He wanted to incorporate some Ultramarine geneseed to stabilize the mixture, but never got the chance.

Fabius probably knows more about the process than anyone alive, and even his experiments occasionally result in a puddle of goo. Then there was that Wolf Priest who apparently managed to "fix" the Wolves' gene-seed, but it all got destroyed along with the Priest.

Pre-Heresy, Luther and company were probably the most skilled at the creation of new Space Marines. They refined the implantation process to the point that they could go from brand spanking new initiate to full-fledged battle brother in a mere 2 years with a 98% success rate.

Anyway, most of the new Chapters created tend to come from Ultramarine geneseed. Not only are they the most numerous, they are not prone to mutations and tend to be among the more loyal chapters as well.

Grey Templar wrote:Certain authors are most certaintly NOT cannon(like Goto) and others are reliable for the most part(like McNeil and Abnett. Abnett gets the name of weapons confused sometimes, but that is forgivable)

I would trust 'most' things that Graham McNeil has to say about Space Marines. Not only was he a developer for 6 years...but has anyone actually met the man?

I have and i'm pretty sure I was standing in the presence of an actual Space Marine! I mean the hulking scotsman has got to be at least 8ft tall, seems to have a fused ribcage and seems to posses the Catalepsean Node for writing books at the rate he does (as well as take care of his family)!

Colep715 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:That is either the author not knowing his stuff or some chaos trickery.

I think its the latter rather than the former, but you never specified what kind of marine this couldn't occur to, just that it was impossible. I was proving you wrong, hence Honsou.

And it definitely wasn't a case of a dumb author, the series of books featuring Honsou are some of the best written that BL has ever produced, etc. I think Honsou was even referenced in one of the Codecies, although that could be wishful thinking on my part.

To expand on this, it says that the Iron Warriors stole the Fist gene seed as an insult to them and then use it to create new chaos marines to bolster the strength of their legion. The new marines are called "half breeds" and are shown very little respect by their Iron Warrior peers. Honsou had a very hard time reaching his position of power because he did not have a Iron Warriors gene seed.

So he actually wasn't a mix of IW and IF geneseed.

He was an IF by genetic makeup, but an IW in loyalty.

By the sounds of it the main bulk of geneseed is kept on Mars or other places, like the place in Storm of Iron, where Honsous Imperial Fist geneseed is established, or looked after by the actual chapter itself.

CODEX ASTARTES

On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines, and, to prevent cross-contamination, the genetic material of each of the old Legions was isolated. Henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock.

the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines.

Rites of initiiation

"I have come to Varsavia to further investigate the purity of the Silver Skulls' gene-seed, following study of the reports by your Lord of the Household."

"Of course, Inquisitor," Malus replied smoothly. "I shall show you our Apothеcarion. We have nothing to hide."

According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

The Admech can't work without the High Lords and vice versa

Rites of initiiation
These must be officially sanctioned by the Master of Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra speaking for the Emperor. Only the Emperor can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter.

Not all chapters have one source of geneseed, these are the only ones I could find though at the moment

IA: Relictors
The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels

But that also mentions the genestocks of Mars

The 21st Cursed founding seems to have some involvement with Fabius Bile, and the 13th or Dark Founding no one has a clue about.

ToBeWilly wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:According to page 8 of Codex: Space Marines, all gene-seed goes to and comes from Terra. Mars has nothing to do with it.

The codex only gives a very small piece of the story:
A.that all geneseed (including traitor although this is inaccessible) is stored on Terra, obviously due to the fact that it is the safest place in the IoM.
B.that Terra has full control of when new chapters are formed

these points are supported by other codex fluff, other fluff clearly tells us that Mars is involved, they are the ones the test for purity and once ordered create new chapters (it's pretty obvious that the only sanctioned scientists would be the ones to do this).

This separate allows no one organisation to use the space marines as their own personal guard

I have never read anything that says the Ad Mech has anything to do with it. The only place I've heard this is here on Dakka.
In Codex Imperials, it tells us that each Chapter's Apothacarion is responsible for genetic history and testing. Nothing about sending anything to the Ad Mech. In fact every edition of Space Marine codex since then, excluding the current one, mentions the Apothcarion being responsible for genetic history and purity.

I would suggest reading more sources, such as the badab war, index astartes, codex fluff, chapter approved fluff about the cursed founding.

1. yes the apothacarium is responsible for the genetic purity of its chapter but the chapter still needs to sent a tithe for purity checks (this has long been 40k fluff).
2. as other fluff has clearly stated (index astartes:founding of a chapter) it is the Ad Mech that create a chapter, as something that should be blindingly obvious seeing as they are the sole controller of technology in the IoM and they are the scientist of the IoM, the Adaptus Terra is a body used for goverment and control, not scientists.
3. this would not make the Fabricator General thee most powerful person in the IoM (although without the support of Mars the IoM would be up creek without a paddle) as if the high lords have complete contol of the genestock and founding (as shown in fluff see CA) then Mars can only found a chapter if the geneseed is sent over.
4. you are also glossing over the fact that the words 'sending geneseed to Terra' does not actually mean 'this geneseed will never be touched by techpriests' beause as fluff has already shown techpriests reside on Terra (an obvious necessity for such a vast and ancient city world).
5. codex imperials, is although a very good read, a very poor source of official canon at this point in the 40k universe.

Ad mech helps control the space marine chapters.