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Looking to build a decent competitive list. I mostly play vs Necrons, Tau, Space Wolves, and now Orks. I am looking to grow as a player and get in to a little more competitive environment. Your help is appreciated!

I've named my Eldar force the 'Black Hand':

Autarch w/Fusion Gun, Scorp Chainsword - 85pts

Autarch w/Fusion Gun, Scorp Chainsword - 85pts

5 Fire Dragons - 80pts
in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri-Cannon - 100pts

5 Fire Dragons - 80pts
in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri-Cannon - 100pts

5 Fire Dragons - 80pts
in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri-Cannon - 100pts

5 Dire Avengers - 60pts
in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers - 115pts

5 Dire Avengers - 60pts
in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers - 115pts

5 Dire Avengers - 60pts
in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers - 115pts

5 Dire Avengers - 60pts
in Falcon w/EML - 135pts

5 Dire Avengers - 60pts
in Falcon w/EML - 135pts

Night Spinner w/Holofield - 150pts

3 Vyper Jetbike w/ 3 Bright Lances - 225pts

Total is exactly 2000pts. Scorp Chainsword on the Autarch is to soak up the last 10 pts.

A slightly different list I made drops one of the Fire Dragon/Serpents and adds Spirit Stones to all grav-tanks and 3 War Walkers w/2xShuri-Cannon each.

ANY critique appreciated!

Well, I'd drop one Autarch and take a Doomseer with runes of warding. The runes are a must-have in a tournament setting since there are many psykers out there in the 40k universe.
Moreover, the Vypers are questionable. I'd take either 2 (naked) Prisms or 3 Warwalkers with scatter lasers.

I'm always a fan of brining Eldrad at these higher point levels - but if not him, then at least a doomseer in support with RoW.

I've never used Vipers so I can't really comment on their effectiveness but since you have them equipped with BLs I'm assuming you want them for tank hunting - but I think you have that covered with three units of fire dragons in serpents. Missle Launcher War Walkers would be great for versatility.

But if what you have is what you have.. it looks good to me.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'd drop one Autarch and take a Doomseer with runes of warding. The runes are a must-have in a tournament setting since there are many psykers out there in the 40k universe.
Moreover, the Vypers are questionable. I'd take either 2 (naked) Prisms or 3 Warwalkers with scatter lasers.

I've debated dropping the second Autarch in favor of a doomseer or eldrad. I'm playing a couple friendly games on Sat with this list, I'll revise accordingly. I think that is the biggest question I had - 2x Autarch, or Autarch/Eldrad.

Falcons count as Heavy regardless if they are carrying troops, right? If that is the case, I can't have more than 1 other heavy support, unless I drop a Falcon or two in favor of serpent(s). As I'll be facing Orks, I opted for the Nightspinner (also never used it before, will be interested to see how it plays). Otherwise I would love to take some WarWalkers with 2xScatter Lasers or 2xShuri-Cannon ...

I'm always a fan of Eldrad anyway, he's hilarious!

Is it just me or is anyone else worried about those Dire Avenger squads? If their Transports get popped they'll just be easy kill points. The ones in the Falcons I can understand because of their lower transport capacity but I was thinking maybe only take two squads of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents, but make them squads of 10 with an Exarch with a Shimmershield and Bladestorm each, as you'll save points from not using one of the Wave Serpents

I like the Vypers. Their incredibly mobile and have 3 Mega AT weapons on them. Other than that. Farseers are a must in Edlar armys. In this lis I'd run one with Guide and RoW. Most would say doom but the amount of High Strength Weapons your carrying will deal with that.

Final note. Rather than have 4X5 DA squads you should have 2X10 DA squads with both Exarchs with 2 Avenger Shuriken Catapults and bladestorm.

With the extra points left from the only using 2 Wave Serpents rather than 4, Give your other vehicles more upgrades or add more wargear to your HQ's.

I would drop the falcon w/ DAVU, the nightspinner, and the vypers to put in 2 x 3 warwalkers w/ scatter lasers and 2 squads of 3 vypers with scatterlasers with a chincannon.

To me those vipers seem overcosted and like to die instantly without much effect. I say drop them and with those points put in eldrad and give spirit stones to the fire dragons wave serpents. That leaves you with 70 points. I think I'd either give the falcons holofields, or also downgrade one scatter laser to a shuricannon and upgrade 1 DA squad to 9 men with an exarch with bladestorm and dual catapults.

Why are you taking Holofields on the Spinner and not on the Falcons?

Personally Id downgrade the Vypers, lone BS3 BLs on an opentopped AV10 vehicle is not nice. Use the pts to get Holofields on both Falcons

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'd drop one Autarch and take a Doomseer with runes of warding. The runes are a must-have in a tournament setting since there are many psykers out there in the 40k universe.

DX3 wrote:I'm always a fan of brining Eldrad at these higher point levels - but if not him, then at least a doomseer in support with RoW.

Rampage wrote:I'm always a fan of Eldrad anyway, he's hilarious!

rivers64 wrote:To me those vipers seem overcosted and like to die instantly without much effect. I say drop them and with those points put in eldrad...

Seems there is consensus here - I will be dropping an Autarch in favor of Eldrad, who will join one of the DAVU falcons to sit 'fortuned' on an objective and shoot 'guided' pulse laser and EML in to the field.

There also seems to be consensus on the Vypers not being worth their while. I will swap in a squad of 3 war walkers with 2x scatter laser each (24 str6 shots from an outflanking unit for 45 pts less than 3 vypers with BL!)

tedurur wrote:Why are you taking Holofields on the Spinner and not on the Falcons?

oops, oversight on my part. holofields will go on falcon with eldrad.

REVISED LIST:

Eldrad - 210

Autarch w/Fusion Gun - 80

6 Fire Dragons - 96
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones - 110

6 Fire Dragons - 96
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones - 110

6 Fire Dragons - 96
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones - 110

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Falcon w/EML, Holofields, Spirit Stones - 180

Night Spinner - 115

3 War Walkers w/2x Scatter Lasers each - 180

TOTAL: 1998

With adding Eldrad and War Walkers and dropping Autarch and Vypers, I also had to drop second DAVU Falcon. I upped Fire Dragon squads to 6 and added Spirit Stones to all Grav-Tanks, and Holofields to Falcon. Fire Dragons go after high AV, War Walkers spam s6, Night Spinner slows hordes, Falcon with Eldrad camps objective with Fortune and snipes priority targets with Guided pulse laser and EML.

Looks quite good. I'm not a fan of special characters. Other than that its fine.

wuestenfux wrote:Looks quite good. I'm not a fan of special characters. Other than that its fine.

Yeah, I'm not a fan either. If I went with Farseer I'd be prone to go with Guide and/or Fortune w/RoW (and SStones) - then he can guide and fortune Falcon. Why do you suggest Doom?

You're right. Doom is not a must-have in an army with lots of S6 weapons and no bladestorming Dire Avengers.
How about a guiding Farseer and Yriel instead of a normal Autarch. His eye of wrath can take down a full Tactical squad in one shot - here doom would be useful.

wuestenfux wrote:How about a guiding Farseer and Yriel instead of a normal Autarch. His eye of wrath can take down a full Tactical squad in one shot - here doom would be useful.

I like that better - but we still have a named character lol. I know how powerful Yriel can be - I had a Wraithguard list with him, and he mopped up some Space Wolves quite nicely. I'll retool the list a little more, and weigh the pros/cons of Yriel vs Autarch. Thanks a lot, I really appreciate your feedback. It's nice to be able to bounce this list around with others...

I am a huge hater of Falcons, they've never made their points back for me. The Nightspinner is another one that seems to generally fail me. My recommendation would be to drop them and pick up Fire Prisms. Fire Prisms are nice because they've got a large template for killing hordes, and a small one for killing tanks, mcs, and even nob squads.

If you dropped the Falcon(including contents), and Nightspinner and got two fire prisms you'd have around 125 points in which you could get 3 guardian bikes, 1 warlock with embolden. That would be good for last second objective captures.

ArcSoll wrote:I am a huge hater of Falcons, they've never made their points back for me. The Nightspinner is another one that seems to generally fail me.

I have heard this repeatedly, but I've also heard people swear by falcons and nightspinners. I've got a couple games tomorrow vs ork, necrons, and space wolves. I'll see how the list fares and adjust appropriately - this is definitely where changes might be made.

Well, I sweared by Falcons in the 4th ed as they were almost unkillable. Now the are more vulnerable especially against melta weapons. So its better to keep them away from such weapons. So they are best used as gun boats in the back field hosting a small DA unit.

Yea, they are best used as gun boats now days, but for their points, and what you get, I'd suggest the two fire prisms. It gives you the option of tank smashing, or horde killing. And if you do the warlock with the bikes you can keep it in reserve as long as possible, and then use it for last second objective snagging or contesting!

beltenebros wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'd drop one Autarch and take a Doomseer with runes of warding. The runes are a must-have in a tournament setting since there are many psykers out there in the 40k universe.

DX3 wrote:I'm always a fan of brining Eldrad at these higher point levels - but if not him, then at least a doomseer in support with RoW.

Rampage wrote:I'm always a fan of Eldrad anyway, he's hilarious!

rivers64 wrote:To me those vipers seem overcosted and like to die instantly without much effect. I say drop them and with those points put in eldrad...

Seems there is consensus here - I will be dropping an Autarch in favor of Eldrad, who will join one of the DAVU falcons to sit 'fortuned' on an objective and shoot 'guided' pulse laser and EML in to the field.

There also seems to be consensus on the Vypers not being worth their while. I will swap in a squad of 3 war walkers with 2x scatter laser each (24 str6 shots from an outflanking unit for 45 pts less than 3 vypers with BL!)

tedurur wrote:Why are you taking Holofields on the Spinner and not on the Falcons?

oops, oversight on my part. holofields will go on falcon with eldrad.

REVISED LIST:

Eldrad - 210

Autarch w/Fusion Gun - 80

6 Fire Dragons - 96
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones - 110

6 Fire Dragons - 96
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones - 110

6 Fire Dragons - 96
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones - 110

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
- in Falcon w/EML, Holofields, Spirit Stones - 180

Night Spinner - 115

3 War Walkers w/2x Scatter Lasers each - 180

TOTAL: 1998

With adding Eldrad and War Walkers and dropping Autarch and Vypers, I also had to drop second DAVU Falcon. I upped Fire Dragon squads to 6 and added Spirit Stones to all Grav-Tanks, and Holofields to Falcon. Fire Dragons go after high AV, War Walkers spam s6, Night Spinner slows hordes, Falcon with Eldrad camps objective with Fortune and snipes priority targets with Guided pulse laser and EML.

I think this list has the most tools and flexibility to go against most armies. If you play it, let us know how it worked for you.

Played a couple games on the weekend with the above list, and learned a few things. First, I'll be dropping the Nightspinner. It worked great against Orks (when it hit), but otherwise was useless. War Walkers were great. I'll be adding 2 squads of three War Walkers with 2x Scatter Lasers each - 48 str6 shots with outflank! Falcon Pulse Laser is fantastic - geared with holofields and spirit stones is tough to kill and enemy tends to focus a lot of attention on it, allowing your wave serpents/fire dragons/dire avengers to do their thang.

I'll be playing against Space Wolves in the next week with the revised list. I'm looking forward to it ...

Thanks for posting your findings. The Nightspinner is definitely a tricky tank, but I don't fault you for taking more War Walkers. I run 9 WW in my own list an with Autarch(s), they are great to Outflank. Not sure if I'm willing to give up the shooting the 3rd squad of WW provide for a Falcon, though. Falcon's do soak up fire, but mine in the past spend more time 'Shaken' than anything else. In the past, I've used a Falcon with EML/Pulse Laser/Holofield/Spirit Stones. A bit pricey, but being able to fire 3 S8 shots was decent. Put in 5 DA and you have another scoring tank.

How did Eldrad work in this list? I've gone without him for about 2 months and it's been a very different game. Could you go with a cheaper Farseer or even 2 Autarchs?

Sarigar wrote:Thanks for posting your findings.

My pleasure!

Sarigar wrote:The Nightspinner is definitely a tricky tank.

Well, it sat at the table edge and shot at advancing troops. 4/5 times it scattered off the intended target. When I was facing the Orks, though, it was hard to miss...

Sarigar wrote:I run 9 WW in my own list an with Autarch(s), they are great to Outflank. Not sure if I'm willing to give up the shooting the 3rd squad of WW provide for a Falcon, though. Falcon's do soak up fire, but mine in the past spend more time 'Shaken' than anything else. In the past, I've used a Falcon with EML/Pulse Laser/Holofield/Spirit Stones. A bit pricey, but being able to fire 3 S8 shots was decent. Put in 5 DA and you have another scoring tank.

that is the falcon build i used - EML/Pulse/Holofield/SStones. It got some key shots off and did absorb a lot of fire - even when it was shaken, i'd rush it to cover and my opponent would still try to move to target it - so it was a great distraction in this way. The problem with the lone squad of 3 warwalkers was they were easily shaken or immobilized, and were really only optimal on the turn they came in. My revised list I'm putting 2 squads of 3 war walkers.

Sarigar wrote:How did Eldrad work in this list? I've gone without him for about 2 months and it's been a very different game. Could you go with a cheaper Farseer or even 2 Autarchs?

I didn't use Eldrad - I used 1 Autarch w/Fusion Gun, 1 Farseer w/Guide, RoWarding and RoWitnessing (Witnessing to absorb the last 10 pts to make 2000) and I dropped the fire dragon squads down to 5 - this way I fit another wave serpent with 5 DA. The Farseer was in the Falcon with 5 DA, and would cast guide on the falcon to basically make it twin linked. I've used Eldrad in some other lists and, while he was a lot of fun and certainly useful, I found he never really earned his points back...

Your revised list looks good. And fine idea too, to downgrade eldrad to guide+warding seer and drop 3 dragons, to get 4th davu serpent