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Hey Dakka, I'm helping one of my close friends start Eldar. He's been playing Chaos Marines so he knows all the rules and basic 40k fluff. I've never faced Eldar with my Blood Angels nor seen one in actions I'm not being a big help with his space elves. Also my friend doesn't have a Dakka account so on behalf of him, I'd like to ask a few questions along with a few of my own.

His questions:

What is the best (cheapest) way to start Eldar? A battleforce or two?
What do Harlequins exactly do and how should they be well used?
Which named characters are worth their points in Codex: Eldar?


My questions:

Why do so many players (especially Marine) whine about Dark Reapers? Do they carry AP 3 guns or something?
Is there anything in Codex: Blood Angels that can face the Avatar and still survive?

I play Dark Eldar, not Eldar, so I can only answer one of those questions with certainty. Harlequins are a very fragile unit, they're the epitome of a glass cannon. For upgrades, you need a Shadowseer and harlequin's kisses for everyone who isn't the Shadowseer. The reason for this is without her, the group will be shot down fast before they can do anything - plus, she gives them grenades.

As for actual tactics, until you get within 24" you don't need to worry about anything other than artillery, as your Shadowseer's Veil of Tears means the enemy can only shoot 2d6 x2. Once you're within this range, you want to make use of difficult terrain and cover. They excel at ripping apart units in cover. Their lack of toughness means they work better against weaker infantry, although with rending weapons they can do a lot of damage to tougher units such as Plague Marines, who aren't so CC savvy. Overall, they're troubleshooters, and should not be leading the assault on their own. Make use of their flip-belts to flank enemy squads and assault through cover, especially due to the fact they can hit and run - smashing an enemy in CC with 3 attacks each (furious charge) almost always winning the first attack (6I with furious charge) and then running back through the cover to diminish the chance of a counter attack. Not to mention, if you get a good hit and run roll you might be out of range of some of your enemies due to Veil Of Tears. Just beware of flamers. Seriously, fear flamers!

Overall, Harlequins are my favourite unit in the game, and although they can be expensive when fully kitted out, and requiring a fair degree of finesse to use properly, in the right hands they can work incredibly well - they just require a bit more intelligence and need to be treated as the glass cannons they are.

Diesel Stradin wrote:What is the best (cheapest) way to start Eldar? A battleforce or two?

Buy an army second hand from Ebay, this is hands dow nthe cheapest way to start. Look for something is a lot of wave serpents and a hefty amount under retail.

The units you are looking for are Wave Serpents, 2-3 Fire Prisms, Fire Dragons, and Dire Avengers.

Diesel Stradin wrote:What do Harlequins exactly do and how should they be well used?

Harlequins need to always be run with a Shadowseer and are the most effective on foot. That being said, avoid them. Yes, they look cool, but are aweful in game due to their ridiculous point cost.

For DE they are a little more viable thanks to their fast moving open topped vehicles, but we have no assault vehicles making that option useless.

Diesel Stradin wrote:Which named characters are worth their points in Codex: Eldar?

Eldrad, Eldrad, and Eldrad. The Avatar is mildly useful if you jsut a guardian foot army, but that is about it. Yriel suffers from no assault vehicles syndrome, and the Pheonix Lords are awful.

Diesel Stradin wrote:Why do so many players (especially Marine) whine about Dark Reapers? Do they carry AP 3 guns or something?

If they are whining about Dark Reapers then apparently they played 10 years ago. Dark Reapers are no good nowadays due to the inability to move and fire. The reason they were feared was thanks to the exarch's Tempest Launcher + Crack shot and the reapers normal shots which lead to a lot of wounds without saves. In a mech world they no longer see the field.

Diesel Stradin wrote:Is there anything in Codex: Blood Angels that can face the Avatar and still survive?

The key is don't assault him. Just shoot at him until he falls over or just ignore him thanks to his slow movement.

There are three major types of Eldar army: Mechanized, Infantry, and Monstrous Creature. IMO, Mech is the most powerful right now. The two types of foot armies have their proponents, but there's a lot of debate about whether they are really competitive.

You can find a more complete breakdown of the three types of armies and their different features in the Dakka articles section:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%27s_Eldar_Army_Analysis

The battleforce has guardians and a weapon platform, which are only really useful for an infantry or MC list, so in my opinion not worth it.

Harlequins really also mostly work in an infantry army, since they're an assault unit and Eldar don't have any assault transports.

Eldrad and Yriel are worthwhile. If you do a search for 'phoenix lord' you'll find many threads on the great phoenix lord debate.

Dark reapers have AP3 guns, but they can't move & shoot and they're very fragile, expensive, and small units. So most Eldar players avoid using them.

The best way to kill the Avatar for any army is to thump him at long range with massed high-strength firepower, so BAs can do that. Also he's vulnerable to force weapons, so maybe mephiston?

I would follow BlueDagger's advice. Mech is indeed the best way to go right now.

Ignore the Avatar, dont get to close, and you'll be fine. If you decide that you must attack it, do so with ranged weapons, or Mephiston, he gets the job done at my FLGS.

Other Eldar Units that I love to use are War Walkers with Scatter Lasers and Warp Spiders. Use lots of cover with them.

I also avoid using Reapers, they never seem to make their money back.

Also, Eldrad is very very wicked. Put him in a Wave Serpent with one of your 5 man Dire Avenger squads so that he stays safe and just casts away. Good stuff!

The battleforce is a solid buy, but has a mix of mech and infantry which won't really fit together well as you get towards normal points levels. If you expect to be competitive you tend to be stuck with a mech army, which means the first stuff you want is going to be a couple of units of Avengers (or Storm Guardians if you can get them) in Serpents + a Farseer for HQ.

Harlies are generally a counter assault unit, they hit hard against both MEQ and GEQ and basically outclass both Banshees and Scorpions. Veil of Tears makes them one of the only assault based units which Eldar can use effectively as it means you don't need transports to get them across the board safely, assaulting from closed top transports is very difficult. Such units are the core of a Foot based list, they can screen everyone without being at risk from shooting themselves. In general you want to stay in cover with them all the time, since it doesn't slow them down at all and you want the protection if something manages to hit you.

On foot the Shadowseer is basically compulsory and pretty much the entire unit should have Kisses to give them some punch against MEQ (maybe 1-2 meatshield guys without them if you need the points). The Troupe Leader is helpful but not always needed, Fusion Pistols are a good way to boost your anti tank (since you can't take as many units of Dragons if you are running Harlies). The alternative way to run them is in small units with 2 Fusion Pistols and have them grab a ride in a Serpent (usually with the unit which brought it taking a Falcon), this gets around the need for a Shadowseer. I use these units as aggressive speedbumps and quasi Fire Dragons (you don't need 5 meltaguns to kill a Rhino) which pack a decent punch in combat as well.

@ Abstract Catalyst. It would help if you got you numbers right, Veil means the ONLY way you can be hit at all from outside of 24" is with blasts which scatter on to you or target a unit which you are standing right next to. With proper placement you should never be hit. They also get 4 attacks at S4 + Rending at I7 on the charge. Also the grenades from the Shadowseer are completely redundant, a carry over from the previous edition. Since Harlies ignore cover they never take difficult terrain checks, and no terrain check means you just attack at I anyway. In most cases you want to use Hit and Run in your opponents turn, otherwise you are very easy to gun down.

For named characters, Eldrad is generally regarded as one of the most powerful special characters in the game. He is a real pain to kill, provides heaps of buffs and can slowly chop down stuff in combat as well. That said he is a big chunk of points, and the benefits he gives are not that helpful to mech lists so isn't an auto include. Yriel is ok, but very easy to kill like any T3 character. Avoid the Phoenix Lords completely though, no invulnerable and no flexibility make them a waste. In general Eldar do fine with cheap HQs, just a Farseer with Doom/Guide + Warding for psychic defense is fine.

Yes Reapers are 2 shot S5 AP3, so are not much fun for Marines out of cover. Even still they are a pretty terrible unit, they do nothing to vehicles, are static (in an otherwise highly mobile army) and cover everywhere massively reduces their effectiveness. They aren't exactly hard to kill with torrent of fire either.

There are heaps of things which Blood Angels have to deal with the Avatar (most armies do actually). For starters Missiles will bring him down pretty quick, he is slow and shouldn't hit combat unless you let him. Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons and other torrent of fire weapons/unit can do the job as well. In combat a unit of 5 TH/SS Terminators will squash him most of the time, the Sanguinor and Mephiston should certainly be able to kill him (I don't think he has Eternal Warrior actually) and any character with an invulnerable and anything higher than S5 would have a chance.

Used armies from ebay or craigslist or your local gaming community is the way to start for certain.

Harlequins, I love em. especially run with a Shadowseer and all with kiss. Veil of tears is a must, since harlies will be on foot. They ignore difficult terrain checks, so they can move right through it all, fleet of foot through the cover, and then assault into it. max attack range of 18" rather useless outside of combat.

And yes, if you are going to hit and run, do it on the enemies assault phase.

Named characters, Eldrad. I occassionally use Feugan too, but usually take Farseers as HQ choices, Warlocks for a seercouncil are also good. The psychic powers to help out the army are worth their weight in gold.

The battleforce is ok, gives you a couple units to try out, but not much variety, 2 troop squads, 1 transport, and 1 walker. eh. Walkers should be run in squadrons of 3.

Check ebay, the swap shop on here, and craigslist for better deals.

Diesel Stradin wrote:Hey Dakka, I'm helping one of my close friends start Eldar. He's been playing Chaos Marines so he knows all the rules and basic 40k fluff. I've never faced Eldar with my Blood Angels nor seen one in actions I'm not being a big help with his space elves. Also my friend doesn't have a Dakka account so on behalf of him, I'd like to ask a few questions along with a few of my own.

His questions:

What is the best (cheapest) way to start Eldar? A battleforce or two?
What do Harlequins exactly do and how should they be well used?
Which named characters are worth their points in Codex: Eldar?


My questions:

Why do so many players (especially Marine) whine about Dark Reapers? Do they carry AP 3 guns or something?
Is there anything in Codex: Blood Angels that can face the Avatar and still survive?

-Cheapest way to field eldar is going full mech. A battleforce is good when starting up a footdar list, but he may difficulties with the more advanced tactics required.
-People use harlies as mobile cover for footdar lists thanks to the nightfighting rules of the shadowseer
-Most definitely eldrad.
-Yes, dark reapers are ap3.
-Lots of things in the Blood angel codex can own the avatar hard. You DO TH/SS termies albeit at increased cost - they will pound it to nothingness, or you can shoot it from afar seeing as how slow the avatar is. Now if he is coupled with a farseer with fortune - thats a different story.

Powerguy wrote:@ Abstract Catalyst. It would help if you got you numbers right, Veil means the ONLY way you can be hit at all from outside of 24" is with blasts which scatter on to you or target a unit which you are standing right next to. With proper placement you should never be hit. They also get 4 attacks at S4 + Rending at I7 on the charge. Also the grenades from the Shadowseer are completely redundant, a carry over from the previous edition. Since Harlies ignore cover they never take difficult terrain checks, and no terrain check means you just attack at I anyway. In most cases you want to use Hit and Run in your opponents turn, otherwise you are very easy to gun down.

That's why I said beware of artillery and flamers - because they have blast markers and templates. I forgot about the bonus for assaulting, which is why I put the I, A and S down by one, but the point is still the same. And I didn't know that ignoring difficult terrain meant you ignored the I loss for assaulting enemies in cover. Nice to know.

How do people feel about Death Jesters btw? I've been playing around with them, but the only tactic I've found with any real worth over simply assaulting is specific to DE - take a shadowseer as well and take a haemonculi with a hexrifle and webway gate, the webway gate is easy to lay closer to the enemy than in normally safe and they can provide good ranged support whilst being impervious to attacks, plus screen other units. The only issue is it's not really worth it in favour of using them to assault.

Your friend needs to pick which Eldar force to run. Basically, his options are the following:

Mechdar (Biel-Tan): This is by far the best Eldar army to run (from a competitive environment standpoint). 3x Wave Serpent, 2x10 Dire Avenger Squad (Exarch with Dual Catapult), 5 Fire Dragon squad (no Exarch), 2xFire Prisms, 3x War Walker, Farseer is a great place to start. Expand as needed. If you want to go Biel-Tan themed, this is the army to run, but throw in some more aspect warriors for fluff.

Footdar (Ulthwe): This army doesn't really work too well any more. You'll rely much more on Guardians. Harlies typically make an appearance here. Avatar does as well, oftentimes. This is the best choice to make a Ulthwe themed army if you go heavy on Seer council and Guardians.

Iyanden: A very fluffy army, and hard to kill. But, it typically lacks volume of firepower and very limited mobility. Doesn't do well competitively. Costs a TON of cash to play. Farseer, 2x 10 Wraithguard (with Spirit Seer), 3x Wraithlord is a great place to start.

Jetbike Eldar (Saim-Hann): Possibly the 2nd best Eldar army, but still not nearly as good as Mechdar. You run a ton of Guardian Jetbike units, and run a Farseer and Warlock squad all on Jetbikes. Again, a rather expensive army to purchase.

MC Eldar: My favorite army, but not particularly good any more. You run Avatar and Wraithlords to just slowly advance on your opponent with incredibly tough units.

Alaitoc: An awful army. Only run it if you really like the fluffyness of it. Field a whole ton of Rangers/Pathfinders and hope for the best (which won't be much).



To answer your/his questions:
I'd avoid the Battleforce. It's worthwhile if you're really good at conversions and can make those Guardians into Dire Avengers. But, there's no real army that wants all of those units. If you want to run a Falcon with DAVU (Dire Avengers as a vehicle upgrade, to make it scoring), the Battleforce becomes worthwhile. But, even then, you won't be saving much.

Harlies are a great bubblewrap for foot armies. But, you should typically avoid fielding them. They just aren't worth the points in Eldar.

Playable named characters are rather few in Eldar. Eldrad is the one you want to focus on. He's one of the best special characters in 40k (possibly the best, but there's definately some competition for that title). Yriel is also playable, but not all that great. The Phoenix Lords are all overpriced garbage. Use them as ways to decorate your shelf, or make them count-as a regular Exarch.

Dark Reapers are no longer a playable unit. They will absolutely demolish MEQ that are in the open. But, if your opponent is running mech, they don't do much of anything other than eat up a ton of points. (They also chew through Tau battlesuits really nicely.) If you're hearing players whine about Dark Reapers, they either haven't played against any since 4th edition, or really need to buy some Rhinos.

Against an Avatar, not much of anything will survive. He is absolutely brutal in close combat, and insanely hard to kill through shooting. That is, as long as he's backed up by a Farseer that keeps Fortune on him. If you find yourself against a Avatar+Farseer combo, target not the Avatar, but target the Farseer. Once the Farseer is dead, the Avatar becomes a mere mortal (about as good as a typical MC).

The harleys are there so you can give coversave to units behinde, while th harlequins cant be shot att. This only works in assulty footdar, so their use is kinda limited