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Kragura wrote:I don't think you will find one re-education camp telling people to become a Troskyist over a Luxemburgest

That doesn't really address the point though.

Monster Rain wrote:

Kragura wrote:I don't think you will find one re-education camp telling people to become a Troskyist over a Luxemburgest

That doesn't really address the point though.

Phew, I wasn't the only one that noticed.

Stalinist Russia featured a lot of killing, and most times the killed were political rivals; ie. Leninists, Trotskyists, etc.

I'm sorry what is the point?

Oh and Stalinists are a form of leninist

What about the people who can't work i.e cant get a job.

(not intended as one of my absolutely cutting and philosophically sound rhetorical questions, I'm actually curious)

Why can't they work, what's the problem. We were essentially volunteering at the church anyway, they just took a little better care of us because we had always been very active at the church even before my dad lost his job.

Look, in most communist countries the families took care of those that didn't work, if you didn't have a family you were out of luck, there were still homless people in the USSR. That's not the communist dream though.

If you can't work and you don't have family, you better find a shelter. I have no problem with homeless shelters and soup kitchens. But just giving people money who don't work, money, to raise their own children, housing and food is BS. Top off letting them live freely with letting them breed freely, now you're just raising the next generation of lazy mouths to feed, that learn it is easier not to work then to work hard.

Look I lived a stone through from the ghetto when I got out of college (E 55th and Euclid in Cleveland OH). I've seen and continue to see more abuse of these systems then I see legitimate use. I was constantly harassed at the grocery store to let people buy me food on their food card, so they could get 50% cash to go but cigarettes and liquor. Obviously they didn't need them food credit if they were willing to sell it at 50% face value. It was insulting, because the way I saw it, that was my money the government was giving them, and now they want to sell it for 50%.

Crap.

I'm sure it has uses, I'm sure there are people that use it as a hand up instead of a hand out. I used to think it was just a small percent that abused it. But the more I saw the more it seamed common practice. People looked at me funny, when I got annoyed, like I was the one being stupid and NOT taking advantage of the system.

Kragura wrote:I'm sorry what is the point?

Oh and Stalinists are a form of leninist

The point is that there were, in fact, projects dedicated to killing people over differences with respect to Communism.

Also, no, Stalinism was not a form of Leninism.

Stalinism cited Leninism as the foundation of its project, but it did not at all behave as Leninism described its intent.

Communism doesn't work.

The watered down version of communism, which is Socialism (roughly...) does work.

Guitardian wrote:By Abbie Don Fidelis's somewhat rational idealism, yes, it makes sense that some folks should not really get a say if they cannot participate in a society. Wait... no it doesn't.

From my point of view, much of society and culture and our social systems and infrastructure are taken for granted, just like the ability to walk or speak is taken for granted. So rich kids with a college degree and some irrelevant office space style job their daddy could buy them would be voting, while orphans growing up eating at soup kitchens would not.

do I detect a trace of envy.....?
you dont have to be rich to go to school. the government will give you some of the money you need, and loan you the rest on pretty generous terms. all you have to do is ask. the system is really pretty liberal. anyone who wants a degree can get one. the more enterprising unemployed are doing exactly that right now. thats why school enrollment is at an all time high.
I dont agree with you that office jobs are irrelevant. if any one group of the labor force were replaceable, it would be unskilled laborers. thats your stock clerks waiters lawn mechanics etc. any moron could do those jobs. not just any moron can design a working automobile or a solar panel. these things come out of offices and they're not exactly dispensible.

guitardian wrote:
Some people do take advantage of a welfare state. Others take advantage of a privelliged lifestyle. This doesn't make either group very qualified in my opinion. I would like to say that anyone on SSI can't vote too, because, hey, at some point in your life you are too young to be allowed a vote, a job, an ability to speak your mind in a relevant way (Sucks being self aware when you're 8 years old). At another point in life you are too old to think rationally for the greater good and just vote based on your own old biases, set in your ways, and usually only concerned with how much you can get during your retirement.

Retardation being a diagnosed medical condition based on an approximate IQ score is equally unfair. If a 70 is a 'dummy' to someone with the average 100, then what do you think an average 100 is to a 130? who sets the bar on what is considered 'too stupid'... because if it were up to Noam Chomsky or Steven Hawking (just as an example, not a big fan) then I doubt any of us would be alowed to vote.

I think the AMA is the organization that decides what the medical criteria for retardation is. My point is its not based on opinion about whose dumb and whose smart. Its an identifiable medical condition and I think we need to ask ourselves: if someone's too dumb to make a pot of hamburger helper or learn how to tie their shoes, are they, at the same time, smart enough to write the laws that govern the whole community? Its not about intellectual elitism. Its about basic capacity to manage ones own affairs.

guitardian wrote:
Kids are very perceptive, very smart, and untainted by social expectations and ground in ideas that they take for granted. Maybe they should be the only ones allowed to vote. It is their future after all.

oh god whatever. I can just see it now. federal subsidies to ice cream, pizza, and power rangers (or whatever the hell kids are watching these days.) no school. ever. no chores. ever. allowance of a hundred million billion dollars a week to every boy and girl in the united states. except jenny. cause shes fat. Miss Jenkins to be stabbed in the eye balls with razor blades till she dies, cause she gave timmy time out that 1 time and it was totally unfair. every boy gets a play station 3 and all the games (you're taxes will cover that), every girl gets a new hannah montanna t shirt and skirt to wear every day (you're taxes will cover that too).

I mean really. if you cant have a serious conversation just say so.
AF



Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
which is the scariest thing of all....

That doesn't particularly scare me, honestly. I don't know if its simple jading, or the result of my current place in society, but what our leaders do or do not believe is of little importance to me. The chances of catastrophe are slim, and I'm fully capable of escaping catastrophe in the event that it does occur.

Never thought that a torn ACL would be a good thing.

lol. yes. thats simple jading.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:you dont have to be rich to go to school. the government will give you some of the money you need, and loan you the rest on pretty generous terms. all you have to do is ask. the system is really pretty liberal. anyone who wants a degree can get one. the more enterprising unemployed are doing exactly that right now. thats why school enrollment is at an all time high.

Those students shouldn't be allowed to vote, IMHO.

I dont agree with you that office jobs are irrelevant. if any one group of the labor force were replaceable, it would be unskilled laborers. thats your stock clerks waiters lawn mechanics etc. any moron could do those jobs. not just any moron can design a working automobile or a solar panel. these things come out of offices and they're not exactly dispensible.

I think it is nonsense to suggest that just because work takes place in an office, the work is irrelevant. We agree there.

What I strongly disagree with is your reference to labor as dispensable. There are an awful lot of people to do many of those jobs, but that does not suggest that anyone can just hop out of a chair and dig ditches 40 hours a week. I have done a LOT of volunteer work and you can spot the office workers from a mile away, not that I hold anything against them for that. On one occasion I was almost hit in the head by a moron swinging a mattock like a madman. I was very close to punching him in the face for it, as my skull being pierced by a mattock would have ended much worse for me, than a simple knuckle sandwich into the guys mouth.

I don't mean to say that everyone that works in an office is inept at using tools, just that I would not hand a keyboard jockey any expensive tools, without first asking for their insurance info. Until a person can show me that they can haul 50 pounds MINIMUM at a time, for up to two hours at a time, I wouldn't want to be working on a crew with them. In many ways the physical aspect to many labor jobs limits who you can hire right of the bat, without the option to attend school to fix that deficit.

Bad knees? Off the crew. Arthritis? Bye. Back problems? Peace out.

There are actually very few unskilled jobs in general. Take a look into nearly any product in your house and consider the menial aspects behind it, you'll often find that there really aren't that many jobs squarely placed in that category. After all, there are only so many ditches that need digging. The guy using that shovel still needs to know what the hell he is doing, or he'll end up with some serious physical problems. Repetitive actions can destroy you. Power tools can paralyze and dismember you; I'm talking something as simple as a jackhammer.

On that note I would love to see someone step out of an office and start working labor. Some may be able to, but the vast majority of those folks are going to be seriously out of shape. Often times, out of shape in ways that they can't even recognize until they try to act like superman.

I think it's worth mentioning that often times blue-collar jobs pay more than white-collar jobs. The guy with the "cushy office job" may well spend all day taking gak from people and then go home to eat Ramen noodles. Only to be interrupted by a call from his boss.

Obviously Office Space wasn't a documentary, but there's some truth behind that sort of satire.

I'm not sure if that is directed at me or AF (I mostly just skim the thread for my quotes and then answer those) but communism doesn't split people into blue collar and white collar just proletariat and bourgeoisie (plus a few others) and both cushy office jobs and factory workers are the former.

It wasn't meant to be related to communism, specifically, just to a prior discussion.

Yeah, were just going off on the usual OT tangents here.

Nothing to see, move along.

Ah okey doky

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that often times blue-collar jobs pay more than white-collar jobs. The guy with the "cushy office job" may well spend all day taking gak from people and then go home to eat Ramen noodles. Only to be interrupted by a call from his boss.

Obviously Office Space wasn't a documentary, but there's some truth behind that sort of satire.

You can earn more per hour (on average, pro rata) as a bin-man, than as a call-centre worker here in the UK.

Kragura wrote:I'm not sure if that is directed at me or AF (I mostly just skim the thread for my quotes and then answer those) but communism doesn't split people into blue collar and white collar just proletariat and bourgeoisie (plus a few others) and both cushy office jobs and factory workers are the former.

it wasnt directed at you.... it was directed at guitardian.

Direct all you want Abby. The point being, that restricting democratic priveliged to only those who are theoretically privelliged enough to compete in a modern high tech and high salary way of life who don't need anything from others (except their labor I suppose), will just lead to cannibalism. Yeah, white collars are tasty and they'll be the first in the cookpot if there is a societal meltdown. I don't think the Czar's family did anything really wrong to deserve being killed by the proles, only that they represented what others didn't have and resented it.

oh..... you dont want to let kids vote anymore? thought you might ahve been on to something there.