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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you deny that Feminism has a very vocal, far left fringe?

Of course! Just like someone who proclaims to be an egalitarian and argues that all men should have bits of their muscles removed because the sexes are not equal otherwise would be dismissed.

Misandrists calling themselves feminists are, as far as I am concerned, not feminists. I am not going to give them credit by calling them feminists.

For example, just the other day I was at the Gothenburg Pride festival, jam-packed with thousands upon thousands of feminists. I can pretty much guarantee you that you'd find no misandrists among them, just a desire to take women's situation up to the level of men.

Calling a bunch of crazed misandrists 'feminist' is actually hampering the effort of those thousands at the Pride festival, and only serves as a shield to take cheap shots at 'those crazy man eating feminists'. I will neither humour that nor the tirades of the ''''''''''''''''''feminists''''''''''''''''''' by calling them that.

Besides, left or right has almost nothing to do with actual feminism. You can improve women's situation up to equality regardless of left or right.

Desubot wrote:
Ploy or not it sure makes them look bat gak nuts.

It was a minor ploy meme-ified, repeated to oblivion, blown out of proportion and generally taken out of context. Don’t use it as the basis for anything at all.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Desubot wrote:
Ploy or not it sure makes them look bat gak nuts.

It was a minor ploy meme-ified, repeated to oblivion, blown out of proportion and generally taken out of context. Don’t use it as the basis for anything at all.

Well if it was said by them then it will still be used against them. people really should know better.

 Desubot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Desubot wrote:
Ploy or not it sure makes them look bat gak nuts.

It was a minor ploy meme-ified, repeated to oblivion, blown out of proportion and generally taken out of context. Don’t use it as the basis for anything at all.

Well if it was said by them then it will still be used against them. people really should know better.

Politicians are still human, and can't always predict how something will end up.

I am reminded of the social domocrats and the Toblerone scandal...

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Once you get to the level of Swedish crazy Gudrun Schyman, a leftist politician who founded a Feminist Initiative Party I'm not quite interested anymore.

I am preeeetty sure the man-tax was a PR ploy made for awareness, never intended for actual use.

It did get headlines far beyond our former western border, so in that way it was a success. ;-)

And I do know there are issues to take care of still. Female-dominated jobs often have crappy pay and going on leave to have children doesn't exactly help you in getting work experiance for increased pay. Hell, I remember how stupid it looked when both medical doctors (mostly men) and nurses (mostly women) had strikes for better terms. The doctors could just refuse to come to work as long as no one was dying right away, the nurses had to keep people on shift because they're the ones that make sure no one dies while the doctor isn't there. Result? Huge payout for the doctors, change enough for a few more McDonalds meals for the nurses.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
First Mad Max world did not feel post-apocalyptic at all. No spoiler, but there is still a functioning state, with rule of law and all. Max is a cop. Like a real one, with wages and rules to follow and all that. There are supermarket around the road, and you can still buy ice-cream at gas stations.

The social collapse in the first Mad Max is only really there to justify the armed bike gangs. Really, the film is more like a Dirty Harry or Death Wish film than anything really post-apocalyptic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Misandrists calling themselves feminists are, as far as I am concerned, not feminists. I am not going to give them credit by calling them feminists.

For example, just the other day I was at the Gothenburg Pride festival, jam-packed with thousands upon thousands of feminists. I can pretty much guarantee you that you'd find no misandrists among them, just a desire to take women's situation up to the level of men.

Calling a bunch of crazed misandrists 'feminist' is actually hampering the effort of those thousands at the Pride festival, and only serves as a shield to take cheap shots at 'those crazy man eating feminists'. I will neither humour that nor the tirades of the ''''''''''''''''''feminists''''''''''''''''''' by calling them that.

That’s pretty much a ‘no true scotsman’ argument, though. If they self-identify as feminist, and draw a lot of their ideas from more sensible parts of feminism, you don’t get to remove them because you don’t want them.

That said, I do think that way too much is made of the fringe of feminism, pretty much so people can avoid dealing with the real issues made by the moderate majority of the movement. But that’s pretty standard for anything that asks hard questions of the majority of society.

 sebster wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Misandrists calling themselves feminists are, as far as I am concerned, not feminists. I am not going to give them credit by calling them feminists.

For example, just the other day I was at the Gothenburg Pride festival, jam-packed with thousands upon thousands of feminists. I can pretty much guarantee you that you'd find no misandrists among them, just a desire to take women's situation up to the level of men.

Calling a bunch of crazed misandrists 'feminist' is actually hampering the effort of those thousands at the Pride festival, and only serves as a shield to take cheap shots at 'those crazy man eating feminists'. I will neither humour that nor the tirades of the ''''''''''''''''''feminists''''''''''''''''''' by calling them that.

That’s pretty much a ‘no true scotsman’ argument, though. If they self-identify as feminist, and draw a lot of their ideas from more sensible parts of feminism, you don’t get to remove them because you don’t want them.

That said, I do think that way too much is made of the fringe of feminism, pretty much so people can avoid dealing with the real issues made by the moderate majority of the movement. But that’s pretty standard for anything that asks hard questions of the majority of society.

One of the core ideas of feminism is gender equality and someone who is a misandrist isn't for gender equality as they give worse treatment to one gender (males) over the other, therefore I fail to see how a misandrist can be feminist if they aren't even able to practice one of the most basic

and core ideas of feminism. Just identifying a feminist (or really any identity) isn't usually enough one's actions, personality, style of dress, etc should reflect the actual group's beliefs, you actually have to commit or understand what it is. You don't just get pick up an "ism" claim you're one and

then not actually practice said group's beliefs, that's just making stuff up and ideas have to have meaning otherwise it turns into pointless nonsense.

Spetulhu wrote:
Female-dominated jobs often have crappy pay and going on leave to have children doesn't exactly help you in getting work experiance for increased pay.

There is also the simple fact that women are supposed to be the one taking leave to care about the child. Sure, they are going to be the one taking the leave when they are pregnant, but there is no reason for them to always be the one taking the leave after the child is delivered. Yet we cannot really force who is going to take the leave, we need to change people's mentality so they do it by themselves.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Female-dominated jobs often have crappy pay and going on leave to have children doesn't exactly help you in getting work experiance for increased pay.

There is also the simple fact that women are supposed to be the one taking leave to care about the child. Sure, they are going to be the one taking the leave when they are pregnant, but there is no reason for them to always be the one taking the leave after the child is delivered. Yet we cannot really force who is going to take the leave, we need to change people's mentality so they do it by themselves.

I think most Western European Countries have maternity leave for men as well as women.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Female-dominated jobs often have crappy pay and going on leave to have children doesn't exactly help you in getting work experiance for increased pay.

There is also the simple fact that women are supposed to be the one taking leave to care about the child. Sure, they are going to be the one taking the leave when they are pregnant, but there is no reason for them to always be the one taking the leave after the child is delivered. Yet we cannot really force who is going to take the leave, we need to change people's mentality so they do it by themselves.

I think most Western European Countries have maternity leave for men as well as women.

MB

The US doesn't.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Female-dominated jobs often have crappy pay and going on leave to have children doesn't exactly help you in getting work experiance for increased pay.

There is also the simple fact that women are supposed to be the one taking leave to care about the child. Sure, they are going to be the one taking the leave when they are pregnant, but there is no reason for them to always be the one taking the leave after the child is delivered. Yet we cannot really force who is going to take the leave, we need to change people's mentality so they do it by themselves.

I think most Western European Countries have maternity leave for men as well as women.

MB

The US doesn't.

If men are paid more anyway because of the wage gap, shouldn't they stick to working until that problem is fixed?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

If men are paid more anyway because of the wage gap

As long as the sun revolves around the earth, that statement is true.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

If men are paid more anyway because of the wage gap

As long as the sun revolves around the earth, that statement is true.

That a wage gap will always favor men, there will always be a wage gap, or...?

BeAfraid wrote:
I think most Western European Countries have maternity leave for men as well as women.

I checked Wikipedia for the situation in France.
Time of the maternity leave after birth is 10 weeks for the first and second child, 18 weeks for the following children.
Time of the paternity leave is 11. 11 is more than 10, right? Oh wait, it is 11 days. Are you kidding me?
By the figures given, in 2007, 31% of eligible fathers did not use it.
What the freaking hell?
I mean, I get it, giving birth is very, very tiring and everything and the mother needs to recover, but 10 weeks versus not even 2 weeks? I am pretty sure it is more than just about giving the mother time to recover, and really there is a big part of it that is linked to how tending to the child is supposed to be the mothers role, and not the father's.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

If men are paid more anyway because of the wage gap

As long as the sun revolves around the earth, that statement is true.

That a wage gap will always favor men, there will always be a wage gap, or...?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

If men are paid more anyway because of the wage gap

As long as the sun revolves around the earth, that statement is true.

That a wage gap will always favor men, there will always be a wage gap, or...?

That men get paid more (in Western countries). It's an outright false statement.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure it is more than just about giving the mother time to recover, and really there is a big part of it that is linked to how tending to the child is supposed to be the mothers role, and not the father's.

Biology called.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Biology called.

What did Biology say? More important, how can I contact Biology? I have a few question to ask to Biology. A bunch of stuff about nature versus nurture and all that jazz.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Biology called.

What did Biology say? More important, how can I contact Biology? I have a few question to ask to Biology. A bunch of stuff about nature versus nurture and all that jazz.

If I had started breast-feeding our daughter in public, I'd have gotten a few weird looks at the very least.

Biology is the reason for why we have such rulings. Women are supposed to raise children by nature and due to our technological advance, breast-feeding is no longer necessary to raise a healthy child (despite breast-feeding still being more beneficial for children). It's the reason for why women were expected to stay home and feed their children, they're primed for it. Breast-feeding, higher high-tone awareness, higher adrenaline output in child-danger situations etc. There's a lot to find on a biological and neurological level. Now that we can overcome or counter-work nature by science, men could just as well raise children and you could change rulings in accordance. Since most women, however, still prefer to stay home and take care of their children and men not actively asking for prolonged paternity leave, I don't see why.

This thread has got weird.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Breast-feeding, higher high-tone awareness, higher adrenaline output in child-danger situations etc.

I can see the point for breast-feeding, but hardly for the rest.
And does breast-feeding take that much time?
I have a colleague for was breastfeeding for years without the need for a maternity leave.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Now that we can overcome or counter-work nature by science, men could just as well raise children and you could change rulings in accordance. Since most women, however, still prefer to stay home and take care of their children and men not actively asking for prolonged paternity leave, I don't see why.

Allowing people to act more in accordance to their own feelings and personality, and less by following ancient societal norms that have no reasons to exist anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
This thread has got weird.

Is the notion of breast-feeding making you feel uncomfortable ?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Biology called.

What did Biology say? More important, how can I contact Biology? I have a few question to ask to Biology. A bunch of stuff about nature versus nurture and all that jazz.

If I had started breast-feeding our daughter in public, I'd have gotten a few weird looks at the very least.

Biology is the reason for why we have such rulings. Women are supposed to raise children by nature and due to our technological advance, breast-feeding is no longer necessary to raise a healthy child (despite breast-feeding still being more beneficial for children). It's the reason for why women were expected to stay home and feed their children, they're primed for it. Breast-feeding, higher high-tone awareness, higher adrenaline output in child-danger situations etc. There's a lot to find on a biological and neurological level. Now that we can overcome or counter-work nature by science, men could just as well raise children and you could change rulings in accordance. Since most women, however, still prefer to stay home and take care of their children and men not actively asking for prolonged paternity leave, I don't see why.

Weird looks! Gasp! You could have though, you know it is possible right? Men CAN breast feed.

However, this article is pretty nice in these regards. http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/05/economist-explains-18

Is the notion of breast-feeding making you feel uncomfortable ?

Considering how the thread is about MAD MAX FURY ROAD...

Then it is… completely on topic! Can those huge ladies that we see being milked take maternity leaves to breastfeed their children? Is it breastfeeding if you drink that milk they extract from them?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you deny that Feminism has a very vocal, far left fringe?

Of course! Just like someone who proclaims to be an egalitarian and argues that all men should have bits of their muscles removed because the sexes are not equal otherwise would be dismissed.

Misandrists calling themselves feminists are, as far as I am concerned, not feminists. I am not going to give them credit by calling them feminists.

For example, just the other day I was at the Gothenburg Pride festival, jam-packed with thousands upon thousands of feminists. I can pretty much guarantee you that you'd find no misandrists among them, just a desire to take women's situation up to the level of men.

Calling a bunch of crazed misandrists 'feminist' is actually hampering the effort of those thousands at the Pride festival, and only serves as a shield to take cheap shots at 'those crazy man eating feminists'. I will neither humour that nor the tirades of the ''''''''''''''''''feminists''''''''''''''''''' by calling them that.

Besides, left or right has almost nothing to do with actual feminism. You can improve women's situation up to equality regardless of left or right.

Desubot wrote:
Ploy or not it sure makes them look bat gak nuts.

It was a minor ploy meme-ified, repeated to oblivion, blown out of proportion and generally taken out of context. Don’t use it as the basis for anything at all.

In short: "No true feminist..."

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

If men are paid more anyway because of the wage gap

As long as the sun revolves around the earth, that statement is true.

The sun does revolve around the Earth if you pick the Earth as stationary for your reference frame. It just makes all the maths harder when you try to put in the other planets

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Female-dominated jobs often have crappy pay and going on leave to have children doesn't exactly help you in getting work experiance for increased pay.

There is also the simple fact that women are supposed to be the one taking leave to care about the child. Sure, they are going to be the one taking the leave when they are pregnant, but there is no reason for them to always be the one taking the leave after the child is delivered. Yet we cannot really force who is going to take the leave, we need to change people's mentality so they do it by themselves.

As far as I'm concerned it should be up to a husband and wife (or husband and husband, or wife and wife or whatever) who takes the leave. Not the government. Paternity/Maternity leave ought to be gender blind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Biology called.

What did Biology say? More important, how can I contact Biology? I have a few question to ask to Biology. A bunch of stuff about nature versus nurture and all that jazz.

If I had started breast-feeding our daughter in public, I'd have gotten a few weird looks at the very least.

Biology is the reason for why we have such rulings. Women are supposed to raise children by nature and due to our technological advance, breast-feeding is no longer necessary to raise a healthy child (despite breast-feeding still being more beneficial for children). It's the reason for why women were expected to stay home and feed their children, they're primed for it. Breast-feeding, higher high-tone awareness, higher adrenaline output in child-danger situations etc. There's a lot to find on a biological and neurological level. Now that we can overcome or counter-work nature by science, men could just as well raise children and you could change rulings in accordance. Since most women, however, still prefer to stay home and take care of their children and men not actively asking for prolonged paternity leave, I don't see why.

Weird looks! Gasp! You could have though, you know it is possible right? Men CAN breast feed.

However, this article is pretty nice in these regards. http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/05/economist-explains-18

With my hairy tits? I think not.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Female-dominated jobs often have crappy pay and going on leave to have children doesn't exactly help you in getting work experiance for increased pay.

There is also the simple fact that women are supposed to be the one taking leave to care about the child. Sure, they are going to be the one taking the leave when they are pregnant, but there is no reason for them to always be the one taking the leave after the child is delivered. Yet we cannot really force who is going to take the leave, we need to change people's mentality so they do it by themselves.

As far as I'm concerned it should be up to a husband and wife (or husband and husband, or wife and wife or whatever) who takes the leave. Not the government. Paternity/Maternity leave ought to be gender blind.

This. Also, very good to bring up gay marriage as the availability (or lack of) paternity leave will impact on gay couples hugely. If they adopt a baby or have one from a surrogate, without paternity leave they basically have no choice but to either have one of them quit their job or leave the baby in childcare whilst they go to work. That isn't fair.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

In short: "No true feminist..."

So if I argue that all men should have their muscles carved to make them physically exactly as weak as women, because otherwise we won't be equal, and I call myself an egalist, you'd defend that in the same way?

No true egalist mate.

Seriously, pushing for equality is a core tenet of feminism. If you (general you, not specifically you) want all men to be burned at the stake, I won't call you a feminist, even if you tell me you really really are.

 Sigvatr wrote:


That men get paid more (in Western countries). It's an outright false statement.

Nice timing. My radio literally just talked about how everything points at female doctors and nurses getting paid less for the same work here.

Looks like P1 doesn't agree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
As far as I'm concerned it should be up to a husband and wife (or husband and husband, or wife and wife or whatever) who takes the leave. Not the government. Paternity/Maternity leave ought to be gender blind.

That seems fair.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I can see the point for breast-feeding, but hardly for the rest.
And does breast-feeding take that much time?

It's not about time, it's more about reasoning for why women are allowed a longer leave than men, i.e. being primed to raise children. I'm not making a point myself, I'm merely coming up with reasons for why there's such a difference.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Allowing people to act more in accordance to their own feelings and personality, and less by following ancient societal norms that have no reasons to exist anymore?

There are reasons for why it's still there, as of above. Women are primed for it on a biological and neurological level. Social circumstances also play into it, no doubt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:


Looks like P1 doesn't agree with you.

I have no idea what P1 is (actually...P1 is a popular club in Germany). If you want to discuss Gender Pay Gap, stay away from everything mass media, search for discussions about Adjusted Gender Pay Gap. There /is/ a gap but it's far, far, far lower than what media tries to sell you. It usually is about 1-4%, depending on the sector. Typical reasons for Health Care and the usual reasons - competitiveness. Men are, in general, mind you, simply more competitive in working areas. Women tend to care more for their employees / departments and tend to be more honest whereas men take more risks, overexaggerate and are more prone to backstabbing others. It's the same reason in every sector. Most of the studies, especially in the Health sector, are utter trash. Very popular studies for example take one kind of doctor and compare their wages without taking specialities into account, i.e. different specializations (differently paid as well!) in the same area. The result? The study is worth less than used toilet paper.

/e: Sigh, straight to Off-Topic town.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

In short: "No true feminist..."

So if I argue that all men should have their muscles carved to make them physically exactly as weak as women, because otherwise we won't be equal, and I call myself an egalist, you'd defend that in the same way?

No true egalist mate.

Seriously, pushing for equality is a core tenet of feminism. If you (general you, not specifically you) want all men to be burned at the stake, I won't call you a feminist, even if you tell me you really really are.

Reductio ad absurdum...

And wtf is an egalist?

Egalitarianist!

Those terms, man.