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How would you go around building a batman crew?

Say I buy the suicide box so I have Ben Afleck

Do I NEED cops as henchmen? Or can I go sidekick free agent power team? What rep cap should I be going for 300 or 350? Probably wouldn't do tournies, but what rep is the game best played at?

Like maybe at 300

Ben
Nightwing
Robin (D. Wayne)
Alfred

or

Ben
Batgirl
Robin (D. Wayne)
Catwoman

There are two ways to go about a Bat-team, you've mentioned both; Batman plus cops, or Batman plus other heroes (you can also do a Sidekick plus cops or heroes and leave Batman out entirely, but then it's not really a Batman crew). I tend to go for all heroes simply as I prefer that, it'll be challenging against high-model-count lists but very fun to play and very rewarding once you get good at it.

Batfleck is a very solid all rounder at a nice cost, so definitely a good Bat to start off with. You then want to fill out the crew with characters that fulfil certain roles. You ideally want:

- Someone who can help out Batman in tough fights, as he's tough but needs backup against mobs or really tough enemies. Nightwing is nice for this, a bit fragile but fast and hits like a ton of bricks. Batwoman is also very good, but expensive enough that I tend to take her as a substitute leader/budget Batman, rather than pairing her with Batman himself. For something more unorthodox and cheaper, Azrael is an absolute murder machine, able to dish out Blood damage (which can't be healed, as opposed to Stun which can) and damn fast as well.

- Someone to run objectives, preferably cheap and/or having a support ability rather than actual fighting prowess. I like the Arkham City Robin for this with his Flash Grenades, but Damien is a cheaper option and has Batlings which can do a fair amount of damage with a lucky shot (just keep him out of the line of fire as he's really fragile). Catwoman is very fast and gets bonuses for Loot objectives. Batgirl is a cheap hybrid of objective runner and backup fighter, she can do both moderately well but not as well as specialists.

- Some ranged damage is nice if you can fit it in, lots of Bat-people have Batarangs or Batlings so it's not essential, but someone like Red Hood or The Huntress can get you some nice dedicated damage dealers that don't need to be putting themselves in danger.

A couple of examples at 350 Rep



As for 300 vs 350 Rep, I think 350 is becoming the standard (especially as more powerful characters like The Flash, Cyborg and Starfire have started showing up), and the extra 50 does mean you can pack in a lot more stuff, at 300 you find yourself with some tough choices when you're building lists so it's less forgiving. It's really down to preference and what's being played locally. For reference, both sets in the Suicide Squad set are 350 Rep, assuming Harley is with the Joker crew. so if you've got that, I'd build your Batman crew to match.

OK I understand!

Another question, what are some key traits that I should look for?

IE It looks like Ben is pretty tough in CC because of sustained defense and close combat master. AK is tough because of Master Fighter.

Basically what abilitys am I looking for in a tank, brawler, ranged dude, object guy. etc etc

Also looking at the following characters what would you say these role estimates are correct? ( I am tracking you answered some of them already)

Batfleck - Melee all arounder
Ark City - Pure all arounder - Mix of CC, Range, and Special traits
Balebat - Sneaky Melee Fighter, less power than Ben but more agile

Gordon - Ranged Support Fighter
Batwoman - Bargin Balebat
Nightwing - Glass Cannon because of the handy electric batons.
Batgirl - Cheap objective grabber and with some support fighter power in CC (through combo with unarmed plus sneak)
Bald Robin - Stealth Nightwing?
Tim Drake Robin - Henchmen buff and Support guy
Black Canary - Cheap Fighter and Objective Grabber - Nuke like Nightwing.
Ravager - Melee Brawler what does having 2 of the same weapons give her? why would I take her over Nightwing?
Catwoman - Objective Grabber because of low points speed and defense
Robin (DW) - Cheap brawler
Huntress - Cheap Range fighter

I know there are other people, but for theme reasons these are the most likely I would pick to start.

That's all pretty much spot-on.

I'd not equate Nightwing and Black Canary too closely just because NW can totally work on his own through sheer damage output, while BC needs someone else to come in and capitalise on the helpless targets, like Batman, Azrael or Nightwing

'Bald' Robin I'd probably avoid simply as there's not much he does that isn't either done better by Nightwing or cheaper by the other Tim Drake, he's just in that awkward middle ground and unlike Batgirl, not cheap enough to justify that. If you like the model, though, you can of course use that with the other Robin rules.

The advantage of Ravager's two weapons is that some characters (notably Catwoman, possibly some others) can Steal your equipment, so it leaves her able to attack even if that happens. The reasons you'd pick her over Nightwing are if you wanted to be dealing unhealable Blood damage (killed enemies award more VPs than Knocked Out ones, and can't get back up obviously) or if you had already used your Sidekick slot.

In terms of traits to keep an eye out for, the important ones are adding reliability through things like re-rolls or bonuses to rolls like Handy, Sharp, Mechanic, Weapon Master, and the ones that let you get more use from your action points like Combo, Sustained Defence, Rapid Fire and Adaptable. Those are the ones that have the most direct impact on how a character plays.

The others to look out for specifically in a Batman crew are Batclaw and Batcape to get up and down from buildings easier, Acrobat for the more reliable movement and more importantly the Dodge ability that can save your life against firearms or bows (anyone that has Acrobat has Dodge automatically, even if it doesn't list it). Reinforced Gloves is also vital, it gives you 2 Stun damage per Unarmed attack rather than 1, so makes you much more lethal up close. All Batmans have that as standard, but it's worth looking for elsewhere as well as that plus combo or Master Fighter means you can really stack up the damage (lots of Henchmen have 4-5 Endurance, so you can drop them in 3 hits with Reinforced Gloves).

Stealth is nice, as it gives you another 10cm of being invisible to shooty enemies, so is nice for fragile or speedy characters grabbing objectives. For that sort you'll also want some kind of mobility boost through Fast, Acrobat or a Batclaw, and in an ideal world at least one other ability that has a more direct use, if you do need to get into a fight, like Robin's flash grenades or Catwoman's Claws.

One thing to keep in mind is that 'cheap' by Batman crew standards is still 2-3 Henchmen in other crews, so in most cases unless the other side is also going Sidekick/Agent heavy, you should be ready to be outnumbered 2:1 at least with this sort of crew.

Thanks I appreciate the tips!

Right now I am looking at:

Batfleck
Nightwing
Tim Drake or Catwoman (leaning Cat)
Black Canary or Huntress (Leaning Hunt)

Then take Circus Training on Bat
Bat Inc on Nightwing
Upgrade Batsuit and Cowl

What does emp do?

That's definitely a team that covers all the bases.

The upgraded Suit and Cowl on Batman is great, it should make him tough for anyone other than the really big hitters like Bane or Deathstroke to handle, and the immunity to CRT will come in very handy as a lot of 'special effects' weapons rely on it. The suit putting him on Endurance 9 is very useful as a lot of weapons do damage in multiples of 2, so having an odd number essentially means those will need another hit to take you down.

The Circus Training I'm not 100% convinced by simply as it takes Movement counters to dodge and Batfleck only has 2 that he really wants to be using on moving/Batclawing. It'd be amazing on the Balebat for instance as he has a massive 4 Movement, and handy on someone like Batgirl or Damien with M3, but with 2 it's just not going to come up that often and is pretty pricey.

Though I guess if you've got the points that you can't fill then it can't hurt to take!

I can't find EMP anywhere on the wiki which is the most up-to-date source, so I'm assuming it's actually meant to be the ECM rule, which shuts off all Light Sources (street lights, torches ect) within 15cm of the model. Quite handy if you need to move near a street light for an objective or target but it's in line of fire of an Assault Rifle or something.

I went for more of a Police focus with my Batfleck list.


Batfleck - Kevlar Cowl, Upgraded Batsuit
Nightwing - Martial Arts Training, Batman Inc
Alfred (I've still never used him)
Delta - Extra Ammo, Street Patrol
GCPD Detective - Extra Ammo
Agent O'Connell
Gotham Policeman

The EMP rule has been kept out of the wiki (for now), to encourage people buying the Flarrow book.

- Basically, it's a reroll against models with Cybernetic, Bot or Robot or vehicles.

I went no cops mostly because it was less to buy. I am not sure how much this game will take off in my little group. Also I kind of feel a little weird trying to run batman with dude having guns.

I managed to snag a few of the planned models on discount via an auction. The idea is to grab the starter, the seperate models for batman, and a few models for a Bane group which is my chosen villain team.

Some where down the line if it gets popular I will invest in Gordon and co.

Got my own list to inquire about, how does this sound?

Batman AK
Red Hood AK
Nightwing
2x Handcuffs
Intensive Training on Nightwing

My main issue is if Intensive Training is worth it (Other 2 have Teamwork:All so I was thinking that'd give me just that bit more versatility) or if it's worth taking the improved cowl for the immunity crit

How do the Watchmen go? The models are pretty nice so it got me interested.

Rygnan wrote:Got my own list to inquire about, how does this sound?

Batman AK
Red Hood AK
Nightwing
2x Handcuffs
Intensive Training on Nightwing

My main issue is if Intensive Training is worth it (Other 2 have Teamwork:All so I was thinking that'd give me just that bit more versatility) or if it's worth taking the improved cowl for the immunity crit

Sadly the handcuffs and Intensive Training have to go, Sidekicks/Free Agents can only take Equipment if it specifically says so. I'd say you're better off upgrading the suit and cowl on Batman. The other thing that stands out is it's 323 Rep so presumably for a 350 game, 3 models at that level is going to be stretched very thin.

Personally, I'd exchange AK Bats for Batfleck (keep the suit and cowl upgrades), and use the spare Rep points to put Damien Wayne Robin in, that way you have someone to run objectives so your fighters can focus on that. Red Hood and Nightwing have the speed to run for objectives if needed, but really you want them in and fighting as soon as possible. Might as well using the funding that's there, so give Red Hood a Hidden Magazine as well for another shot.

3 models is just about doable at 300, but at 350, the extra funding and rep means the big guns and heavy hitters are going to be a lot more common.

-Loki- wrote:How do the Watchmen go? The models are pretty nice so it got me interested.

I've not played them, but the thing to keep in mind is that at 350 Rep (standard size these days) you won't have any options, you have to take all 5 of them and that's it. On one hand, if you just want a small, focused collection then that's great as there's no temptation of endlessly buying more stuff for your crew, but on the other, it does mean you'll be playing the same team basically every game.

 Paradigm wrote:

-Loki- wrote:How do the Watchmen go? The models are pretty nice so it got me interested.

I've not played them, but the thing to keep in mind is that at 350 Rep (standard size these days) you won't have any options, you have to take all 5 of them and that's it. On one hand, if you just want a small, focused collection then that's great as there's no temptation of endlessly buying more stuff for your crew, but on the other, it does mean you'll be playing the same team basically every game.

The bigger problem with playing watch man is having to use that douche Veidt

I'm still planning on playing Poison Ivy. The Watchmen was more of a little side thing. Do they play well in their little group?

While I have never played it looks like they follow what Para was saying is required. Both Nite Owl, Rorschach, and SS look good as objective grabbers, but they also have some interesting ability combos that make them pretty strong.

Comedian looks pretty awesome as a ranged guy. Ozzy is basically a batman type. It looks like they would work pretty well as their own team. The main problem is you would get bored only using the same models.

Yeah, like I said, I still plan on playing primary Poison Ivy. I just thought a little self contained 5 model team could be a fun side project.

I just painted this guy as a gift for a friend. More photos and details on my blog.

Is there a good reason why the two facebook groups keep changing their names? It's annoying.

From ACL:

"Right, a quick announcement - the Arkham City Limits is no longer an Official Knight Models group.
Now, that might come as a shock to some of you - to a lot of members its always been that way. But thats not actually the case - the ACL originally was just a little fan group - I was approached by the old Community Manager and asked if I minded the ACL being the official Facebook Group for the Game, I accepted and felt quite flattered at the time. But times change, as does a Gaming Community.
After much consideration and long discussions, The general concensus was that it was time for the ACL once more to be independant to allow us to not only focus on ALL of Knight Models Wonderful Games and Miniatures (just like the ACL Forum already does http://arkham-city-limits.boards.net/). But also to allow more freedoms to our Members, FLG's, and producers of Third Party Products such as Terrain.
This is not to say the ACL will become a "free for all" for people to bitch and whine - far from it, we still expect the best manners and highest standards of behaviour from our Membership - but now we are free to explore all the possibilites for ALL of Knight Models games.
What does this mean to the Membership? To be frank not a lot really, there will still be competitions, news, and gossip - everyone is now free to post news and and information on new products with much more flexibility that before.
But now we'll also be able to feature news and new products from Impudent Mortal, Knights of Dice, TTCombat, and Multiverse Gaming freely and without restriction.
Plus we're hoping to get our "Worlds Finest" Tournaments started next year too (with a little help from our friends) expect more information on that next year!
One last thing - we need a US Admin! We don't have one - and we need one!
Please PM me (Drew) or any of the Arkham Knights (Admins LoL) to offer your Services!
Regards - Drew"

The highlights on this guy aren't very good, but he was a bit of a rush job.

Why is he green?

nedTCM wrote:
Why is he green?

I didn't feel like painting him in the "official" greys, especially since he would be leading a band of grey/black clad ninjas, so I figured a dark green would be nice. It came out much brighter than I had originally intended, but I couldn't be bothered to try to darken it once it was done - like I said, bit of a rush job.

And to be fair, Ra's is often depicted with green robes in the comics, so it definitely fits, in a more comic-booky universe than the Nolan movies I can definitely see him wearing a matching suit when he needed to go incognito.

Nice work!

 Paradigm wrote:
And to be fair, Ra's is often depicted with green robes in the comics, so it definitely fits, in a more comic-booky universe than the Nolan movies I can definitely see him wearing a matching suit when he needed to go incognito.

Nice work!

Thank you!

Last one for a while:

Damn, that's friggin gorgeous!!!

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Damn, that's friggin gorgeous!!!

Thanks, I'm really happy with how he turned out.

I mentioned a long time ago that I had hoped this game would be good for introducing new player to tabletop gaming, but that I felt it was complicated. Well, I finally got around to trying a game, using a simplified subset of the basic rules. It didn't go very well; the special (advanced?) rules seem to be too important and it doesn't really work very well without them. I've got a a few photos on my blog if anyone's interested.

Yeah, the game is very much on the deeper / more complicated scale. - It's not a thing against the game though, really. I've got a few mates that want something that feels a lot deeper.

However, you can now start them off on the DC Miniatures Game, potentially using some of your other models from the BMG.

EG Batman, Flash, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Justice League Team (Yeah, I know it's not strictly allowed, but meh, it's a smaller points game)

Against Joker, Harley, Deathstroke and Ras/Bane/Clayface.

 Compel wrote:
However, you can now start them off on the DC Miniatures Game, potentially using some of your other models from the BMG.

I'm thinking about that, though that does mean that most of the models I've already painted are useless, and I'm not sure how much more time, effort and money I want to put in without knowing whether my friends will actually take to it or not (my primary game is Warmachine, and I've got a whole stack of stuff I'm trying to finish for that). Well, right now I'm planning to re-read the rules and then try Batman again, should be a bit easier now the second time around.

That's kinda interesting, I feel War Machine is probably one of the games most similar to Batman.

 Compel wrote:
That's kinda interesting, I feel War Machine is probably one of the games most similar to Batman.

I'm curious, could you explain? I have not played many games other than Warmachine: a bit of 5th ed 40K, and a touch of Infinity is about it.

I guess to kinda explain it, I need to go a bit into my 'philosophy' of Tabletop games. I tend to split tabletop games into 2 types, that I basically decided to call "strategic" and "tactical" games. It's not the TRUE definition of the words, but they kinda fit nearish well enough for me.

Typically, Strategic games, your 'plan' is ultimately the most important thing. Whether this happens in listbuilding, the deployment phase, or the first couple of turns, this specific strategy and goal you have in mind and your adherence to that strategy and goal, and the strength of that strategy versus your opponents strategy is what decides the outcome. Games I'd put into this camp include Warhammer Fantasy, Blood Bowl, Kings of War, Star Wars Armada, War Machine and Batman.


Tactical games on the other hand are a lot more fluid. Sure, deployment, listbuilding, having a plan all play a part in it but, ultimately they're not The Most Important Thing for success. Generally, the key to success lies in being able to adapt more to changing circumstances, being reactionary, the person that's best placed, in the heat of the moment, to react to changing circumstances. Examples of this sort of game would be some 40k game types, Lord of the Rings, Dreadball, Deadzone, Imperial Assault, X-Wing and Marvel/DC Superheroes.


So, both War Machine and Batman are very much the 'Strategic' games, which kind of makes it harder for someone to get into initially, until it 'clicks'.

Now, I don't play War Machine myself, but I've had some chats with some mates that are big into it. The way I understand it, War Machine is ALL about the moving gears in a giant wheel sort of style of play. A boosts B who enhances C, who makes D awesome, who makes your Warcaster blow up your opponents head.

Batman, despite being a skirmish game, is very much that same sort of way. When you sit down and make a list you need to go and think. "Ok, how am I going to achieve the most points, what objectives am I going for, how is my team going to fit together that I can still enact my plan to achieve my victory conditions."

So ultimately, even before the game starts and you have an opponent, or sorted out your army list you're having to plan these specific concepts to ensure that you win the way you're wanting to win. So there's a huge amount of pre-game thought that matches together your list, your objectives and your Bonus Strategies.

And there's this sort of heavy thinking that I feel is so similar. And is probably why it's quite hard to introduce people to the game.