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Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





I think it's safe to say that the Emperor was kind of a prick. He clearly had sons that he favoured over others but even then he treated them all more as tools than family. People like Angron and Konrad Curze should have been given serious therapy, instead they were given armies and let loose.

It doesn't look like the Emperor cared about being fair or even being liked at all. Which is why so many primarchs didn't take much convincing to rebel. So yes, the Space Wolves situation is hypocrisy and the Emperor probably didn't give a damn.
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Spoiler:
I dont think anyone disagrees that magnus disregarded the edict. The point is every legion adhered to it (some much more reluctantly than others) disbanding their librarius and having chaplains/watchers watch them etc. Dorn even imprisoned all of his librarians I think. Anyway, the point is in all of this nobody looked at rune priests and pointed out they are also psykers. I dont care if they believe their psyker powers come from fenris or that they genuinely believe they are vikings and space is magic land...


The Wolves were already the Emperor's executioners, you don't push a favoured legion into murdering you for fun. And like people have said, the Council was more an unofficial censure of the Tsons rather than any important ruling on a Librarius.

Also, the Wolf Priests aren't Librarians, as Fenrisian Priests cover Librarian/Apothecary/Chaplain much like the Druids of the Emperors Spears chapter. The culture of Fenris is more important to the Wolves than the culture of the Imperium, yes they are loyal to its ideals but they aren't going to stop being Space Vikings and start using High or Low Gothic names for things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/05 14:59:03


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Heres another one;

How did Eldrad not sense the dang demon sword of slanesh on fulgrim from a mile away rather then until they were having tea... ??

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Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander





Bristol (UK)

 Tiennos wrote:
I think it's safe to say that the Emperor was kind of a prick. He clearly had sons that he favoured over others but even then he treated them all more as tools than family. People like Angron and Konrad Curze should have been given serious therapy, instead they were given armies and let loose.

It doesn't look like the Emperor cared about being fair or even being liked at all. Which is why so many primarchs didn't take much convincing to rebel. So yes, the Space Wolves situation is hypocrisy and the Emperor probably didn't give a damn.

I get that's how he's depicted now. But how did this man unite Terra and begin the great crusade? How was he ever so adored?
He's like the worst leader you could possibly be.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Because he has the bigger army and god-like psychic power. He is not a normal man, and he is not playing with the same rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because he has the bigger army and god-like psychic power. He is not a normal man, and he is not playing with the same rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/05 18:51:56


 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Because much like the Primarchs, the Emperor has unnatural charisma. If you were to meet him it would be impossible to not want to serve him. It took a being of equal charisma, Horus, and the support of his brothers for half the Imperium to turn on the Emperor.
If you live in an irradiated wasteland with no real hope then some giant golden man with a halo and a flaming sword says "Hey kid wanna unite humanity and join me in creating a glorious future?", you're hardly gonna say no. It's the same thing irl dictators do all the time, lift up the people with promises of glory and reclaiming their home. The Unification Wars weren't a week of some fighting then off into space. The Solar Reclamation took like 50 years or something, remember the Great Crusade was the better part of 300 years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/05 19:27:46


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Gert wrote:
Because much like the Primarchs, the Emperor has unnatural charisma. If you were to meet him it would be impossible to not want to serve him. It took a being of equal charisma, Horus, and the support of his brothers for half the Imperium to turn on the Emperor.
If you live in an irradiated wasteland with no real hope then some giant golden man with a halo and a flaming sword says "Hey kid wanna unite humanity and join me in creating a glorious future?", you're hardly gonna say no. It's the same thing irl dictators do all the time, lift up the people with promises of glory and reclaiming their home. The Unification Wars weren't a week of some fighting then off into space. The Solar Reclamation took like 50 years or something, remember the Great Crusade was the better part of 300 years.


Yeah you would have to roll a crit on your charisma check not to serve him

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Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





 kirotheavenger wrote:

I get that's how he's depicted now. But how did this man unite Terra and begin the great crusade? How was he ever so adored?
He's like the worst leader you could possibly be.

He did kinda look like a god... but beyond that, for all his faults the Emperor did improve humanity's situation in a broad sense. Before he got to work, Terra was basically Mad Max World. All the other human colonies were mostly cut off from each other. The fact that many planets regressed all the way to "feral world" level shows how bad the Age of Strife was. The Emp's work was brutal and bloody, but it did bring progress and safety to a lot of places.

Anyway it seems obvious that the Emperor did genuinely care about humanity as a whole and did everything he could to help it thrive. The crusade wasn't a matter of pride or megalomania; he could have conquered Earth ages ago if he'd been inclined to. His problem seems to be that he did not care much about individual people (save for a few rare ones). He either didn't realize how unfair he was, or justified it as necessary for the greater good, because he was much more focused on the big picture.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Tiennos wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:

I get that's how he's depicted now. But how did this man unite Terra and begin the great crusade? How was he ever so adored?
He's like the worst leader you could possibly be.

He did kinda look like a god... but beyond that, for all his faults the Emperor did improve humanity's situation in a broad sense. Before he got to work, Terra was basically Mad Max World. All the other human colonies were mostly cut off from each other. The fact that many planets regressed all the way to "feral world" level shows how bad the Age of Strife was. The Emp's work was brutal and bloody, but it did bring progress and safety to a lot of places.

Anyway it seems obvious that the Emperor did genuinely care about humanity as a whole and did everything he could to help it thrive. The crusade wasn't a matter of pride or megalomania; he could have conquered Earth ages ago if he'd been inclined to. His problem seems to be that he did not care much about individual people (save for a few rare ones). He either didn't realize how unfair he was, or justified it as necessary for the greater good, because he was much more focused on the big picture.


I disagree.

Most colony worlds seemed to be quite stable and there were many with intersetallar mini empires and trade networks co-operating with other humans or aliens in relative peace. These all offered resistance warranting the wars. Otherwise why were there so many compliance wars? All of those were fine on their own. And capable of giving resistance...Sure, they could be wiped out by a passing waagh or some random alienz. But thats no different to what happens in the IOM anyway... Help is too far away to come on time anyway so what's the benefit of being part of emperors empire?

Truly regressed worlds welcomed the IOM because they were so outclassed, incpabale of defending themselves and their lives for lack of a better term, sucked.

Worlds enslaved by Aliens etc would likewise welcome the IOM. But most words were pretty ok by themselves to one degree or another.
Call it what you wil but its plain and simple iron fist tyranny and conquest for the sake of conquest. Any nobility in that is just propaganda. Theres is a monologue when Angron lays it out perfectly..

Curbing out Chaos seems like a good reason but then why be a prat about it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/06 05:55:14


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






You aren’t separating what most people would see within the setting and what you know from the behind closed doors actions and conversations. You have fly on the wall knowledge about him that the vast majority of people, including the Primarchs at points did not have.

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Made in gb
Wing Commander





Bristol (UK)

The council of Nikea was pretty blatant though.
The chances that any of the Primarchs DIDN'T see Russ flouting his psykers, during the council and/or in their overseer parties afterwards should be nill.
And that's just one example.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You aren’t separating what most people would see within the setting and what you know from the behind closed doors actions and conversations. You have fly on the wall knowledge about him that the vast majority of people, including the Primarchs at points did not have.


We know alot of primarchs realised this.. it just took more or less wars for some to notice then others.
And not just the primarch. Theres plenty charachters through the books that are "unclouded" by the iim propaganda and they see it for what it is.

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Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 Argive wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You aren’t separating what most people would see within the setting and what you know from the behind closed doors actions and conversations. You have fly on the wall knowledge about him that the vast majority of people, including the Primarchs at points did not have.


We know alot of primarchs realised this.. it just took more or less wars for some to notice then others.
And not just the primarch. Theres plenty charachters through the books that are "unclouded" by the iim propaganda and they see it for what it is.

And those Primarchs then jumped to Chaos, kinda proving the Emperor right.

I agree that the Emperor is at his core another warlord, but without him humanity would have died a long time ago. A fractured humanity would have been unable to survive the Beast, would have fallen to the Rangdan and would have no chance of surviving the Great Devourer or the Necron threat (it still is heavily unlikely to survive either, but at least it has a fighting chance).
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





The Imperium is an empire. Empires tend to do bad things for "good" reasons. When every day is a struggle for survival, then a powerful god-like being comes along and says all you have to do to survive is swear loyalty, you swear loyalty. If you don't you die and your people are "freed" into the Imperium. More human worlds willing joined the Imperium than fought it but they wouldn't make for good stories and battle reports so of course, you see the humans fighting the Emperor. People keep seeming to forget that over 300 years of Crusading humanity still hadn't recovered all of its worlds and had committed numerous xenocides.

And just to make the point even clearer than it already is.

NIKEA WAS DUMB THAT'S THE POINT.

The Imperium and the Emperor actively do stupid things because they're human and have things called emotions. It doesn't matter if you the reader can see all the points of view objectively, they cannot because purely logical and infallible characters are boring and not good for stories that in turn sell toys.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/06 21:07:47


 
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





Are there many examples of Librarians becoming Chapter ?Masters or even just Captains and given their own companies to command?
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander





Bristol (UK)

If a captain promotes to chapter master, they lose command of their company. Instead they gain command of the entire chapter, including their previous company!

Librarians, not that I'm aware of. They're a separate arm of the chapter. Same for chaplains.
Although in the Blood Angels chapter, if the chapter master were to fall the High Chaplain and Master Sanguinary Priest take over joint command of the chapter until a new chapter master is appointed.
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Are there many examples of Librarians becoming Chapter ?Masters or even just Captains and given their own companies to command?


They're rare - but there is a handful. The Blood Ravens had Azariah Kyras (who fell to Chaos) for example.
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





It's possible but insanely rare for any Marine not already in the command structure proper to become a Chapter Master. Sarpedon of the Soul Drinkers (the old ones not the new primaris chapter of the same name) and Kyrus of the Blood Ravens (but he was dedicated to chaos and caused a civil war within the chapter) are both examples of Cheif Librarian/Chapter Masters. The Angels Penitent also have a ruling council of Chaplains after their Chapter Master and 1st Company went missing. The Celestial Lions Chapter Master was just the last sergeant alive after the Inquisition plotted their extinction. The Iron Hands are also governed by a council and in their Legion day's Companies could be led by Iron-Fathers a Chaplain/Techmarine hybrid. My favourite lore stuff is when a lesser-known chapter with just a name and a paint scheme, gets new lore that shows its own unique culture, like what ADB did with the Emperor's Spears and what the new SM codex showed with some new/old chapter lore updates.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 15:39:04


 
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





Would two Gloriana class battleships be the average each Legion had?

So basically one for Primarch and the other for the highest ranking Astartes who acts as second in command?
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

It was the average, although some Legions had more Glorianas than others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/11 18:57:25


 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Thus far it has been one for each barring a couple of exceptions.
The Sons of Horus had two but they were favoured of the Emperor so would explain that.
The Imperial Fists had one but also had the Phalanx.
The Alpha Legion had two but they also had two Primarchs.
The Dark Angels have three we know and it's known they have more and were noted to have lots of Dark Age tech and the largest fleet of all the Legions but being the First Legion again they probably had the Emperor's favour.
The Word Bearers had two but considering the Mechanicum also built them three Abyss class super ships it's hardly surprising.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Argive wrote:
Heres another one;

How did Eldrad not sense the dang demon sword of slanesh on fulgrim from a mile away rather then until they were having tea... ??


Ignoring that Macneil wrote the eldar terribly in that book with wraithlords and avatars being slaughtered by Fulgrim (it was at the height of GW's worfing of the avatar). They came across as identical to modern 40k eldar which they really shouldn't have been. So from this perspective Macneil was just writing the eldar as stupid mooks to kill so of course they wouldn't discover the obvious thing...

There are a couple of options:

1) Eldrad was relatively young at this point and the path of the seer very new. He may just not have had enough experience to figure this out
2) the sword was remaining as inert as possible to avoid being detected by sensitive individuals
3) Fulgrim's Emperor soul was so strong it kind of made it hard to notice the whispering daemon bound to a sword in it shadow

I'm still personally happy with 4) GW refuses to make anyone (especially the eldar) look better than the imperium.
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




Thought that Glorianas were Primarch Flagships, and that they were reserved for them. The Imperial Fists being special because they had the Deathstar sized Phalanx and the Alpha Legion also, you know. Having two Primarchs.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






It seems in the HH there is a never ending stream of Titans and Battle Barge sized Gloriana Class battleships..

Like Guiliman brought an Imperator titan to fight lorgar and Angron... On its own. Where on mars, where the titans at when an imperator showed up they were like "OMFG what is that!?" And g man just shows up with one and drops in from space no less.... And without an escort I.E. warhounds which are common as instant noodles by all accounts Seeing 10+ is pretty standard for a lot of fleets it seems...

Im on book 36 but I've noticed some shall we say dubious numbers when it comes to ships.. Theres always more ships..

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune





Northumberland

I recently found myself on the 40k lore subreddit and I have to ask, why is the understanding of 40k lore so appalling on it? I don't know whether it's just me but I find it quite odd. The questions are fair enough but some of the responses are just weirdly wrong as if they have a very narrow view of the universe. Is it just new people in the hobby not getting to grips with it?

One and a half feet in the hobby


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Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

panzerfront14 wrote:
Thought that Glorianas were Primarch Flagships, and that they were reserved for them. The Imperial Fists being special because they had the Deathstar sized Phalanx and the Alpha Legion also, you know. Having two Primarchs.


No, just the largest "mass-produced" Battleship. The Imperial Navy (or whatever it was called then) had several.
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Bath

 Olthannon wrote:
I recently found myself on the 40k lore subreddit and I have to ask, why is the understanding of 40k lore so appalling on it? I don't know whether it's just me but I find it quite odd. The questions are fair enough but some of the responses are just weirdly wrong as if they have a very narrow view of the universe. Is it just new people in the hobby not getting to grips with it?


short answer is: quite likely.


without trying to sound condescending, i believe the longer answer is:


Reddit has a somewhat skewed demographic profile compared to both the wider internet and the population at large, the average redditor being quite young, often in their early to mid teens (obviously, not ALL of them, but more of them than a equivalently sized but randomly selected grouping of, say, the US population would have). 40K has always been popular with teens, so a a section dedicated to a hobby full of young people, on a site that has a disproportionally young userbase, is going to have a lot of very young users who simply haven't read the 30-odd years of lore available. Hell, i'm in my 30's and theirs dozens of things in lore i don't know (never read a single one of the Horus heresy books, for example). And i know that back when i was a teenager in 3rd edition playing with my eldar (back when the "now in collage" guardian sculpts were new), I wasnt that great on a lot of the lore that wasnt directly related to my own faction, and often fuzzy on my owns factions lore as well.

But I didnt know it at the time. I thought I was something of an expert at the lore of the eldar, and would happily have debated with someone about it until i was blue in the face. I think a lot of the stuff your seeing on reddit is just more of the same, but online. kids with some knowledge trying to lord it over thier fellow peers, even though they dont know that much.

It doesnt help that most 40k lore is written to glorify one faction or another, so a player who'd only read, say, the genestealer cults lore in the codex would think they are awesome and unstoppable, whereas a marine player who'd only read his own lore might have a totally different opinion of them. cue internet "o rly?/ya rly" fights ad infinitum.

its the modern day equivilent of the schoolkids gathered in the playground talking bull to each other.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Olthannon wrote:
I recently found myself on the 40k lore subreddit and I have to ask, why is the understanding of 40k lore so appalling on it? I don't know whether it's just me but I find it quite odd. The questions are fair enough but some of the responses are just weirdly wrong as if they have a very narrow view of the universe. Is it just new people in the hobby not getting to grips with it?
As someone who's on there quite a lot and tries to do his best to answer questions, there have definitely been instances where a question was answered so poorly that I just say, "Nope. This question is unsalvageable" and walk away. A lot of it does come from there being a fairly large number of new people to 40k, but that's intertwined with the people who get all their lore from youtube videos or TTS. They've never picked up a 40k novel, much less a codex or even thought of making any kind of army. I understanding that there are audio learners out there, but with very few exceptions, I've never seen a 40k youtube lore video that could properly convey the level of nuance that comes with almost every single piece of 40k lore. Just how many exceptions there are or how one occurrence of something does not mean it's a galaxy-wide standard. They treat 40k as consumers, rather than creators. Like it's Harry Potter or Marvel. Something that you wait to see what happens next rather than using the plothooks to create what's right for you.

A step up from that are the people who have only read the Horus Heresy novels and wouldn't be able to name two non-Imperium characters (that's not Trazyn). They try to apply a lot of what they see in the HH to the rest of 40k, not understanding just how much information would've never been public or been lost or covered up a dozen times over.

That said, I'm now terrified that some of my answers might be what you're referring to

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/17 20:24:47


 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





40k lore is meme'd the most and because people see memes more than read codex/novel/rule books they accept it as fact. Not to say memes/jokes don't have their place but as a source of lore or background, solid nope.
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Bath

 Gert wrote:
40k lore is meme'd the most and because people see memes more than read codex/novel/rule books they accept it as fact. Not to say memes/jokes don't have their place but as a source of lore or background, solid nope.


QFT. I know almost nothing about Erebus, but i know to screw him if i meet him.......

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
 
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