Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Legions Games will be hosting the semi-finals of the 2011 40k 'ard boyz on September 17th.

1130 Perry Hwy, Pittsburgh, PA , 15237. Be aware if traveling from the east give EXTRA time due to the tunnels being restricted on the weekends
Legions Games (and now the north from I-79 due to probable construction between cranberry and wexford exits).

START TIME Noon. Signups at 11

We have a reputation for running good events, so every come and enjoy yourself. Due to recent events the following is something that everyone should be aware of

All tournament lists MUST be typed and printed out OR it must be on a normal sheet of paper with all units, options and wargear taken CLEARLY LABELED. If you can't take the time to write out your list then there are room for casual games on non-tournament tables. In addition, player conduct will be monitored and EVERYONE is expected to respect each other and play legit. I understand people can be heated during a competition, that is fine

In addition to the standard rules for list submission players may EMAIL me a copy of their list. This can be any time before the tournament starts (even during sign up, I don't care long as I get a list emailed). It's much easier for me to keep track of things this way given the scope of the prizes.

Signing up prior to the event is not required, however, if I know you're coming then I can be more receptive if you happen to encounter travel delays.

SEE 'ard boyz rules

I reserve the right to make GW's missions more clear and any erratas will be posted here

INAT V.5.0.1 FAQ is being used unless a newer GW official FAQ overrides certain portions

WYSIWYG is enforced within reason. Proxies that looking nothing like the original unit in question are not allowed. Minor variations are and if you have questions then ask beforehand

Slow play will gain you no advantages in this event

Each round will be 3 hours long (Instead of 2.5). Time will be called at that point

During the final round (3rd) of the event the top 3 tables (1st-6th place) will be able to play out their full game. Due to the large prize for this event I believe in true competition. No one will win an army because they only got to turn 3. This may be extended to additional top tables if the battle point scores are close enough that it is possible for a player in that rank to win

Please send any and all questions regarding the tournament to ME personally as I am not an employee of Legions Games. It's easier just to PM me here, but you can email me at kirasu@verizon.net as well

Kirasu, i'm available to help since i could not make round one, I can bring amrybuilder + whatever else you need though i know you have everything covered.

MISSION ERRATAS (changes also)

Please note Infiltrate, Scouts and outflank are NOT listed as they are USRs or byproducts of other rules. They are all allowed.
I didnt note down Deep strike or reserves, GW allowed them in all missions so I just didnt put them in every mission to save space

For mission 1 I cleared up the messenger wording a bit and made the bonus victory point condition precise (less gimmicky also)

Mission 2 was pretty much unchanged, made center objective less prone to people using random sized objectives

Mission 3 was modified more heavily. Frankly the "terrain" thing doesnt work and would require way too much overhead for me to properly balance, changed it to objectives yet kept the "random" nature of it intact by scattering objectives. I think that stays within the same feel. Upped the kill point requirements a bit to be in line with the difficulty of the other 2 conditions. This is for a huge prize after all.

Also, since no ruling exists for wiping opponents out (beyond "you win") I added clear Wipe Out rules for each mission.

These are the final rules barring typos that will be used for the PITTSBURGH semi-finals. Questions can be addressed to me specifically as the store staff at Legions knows nothing about the event. Click link or read below

Pittsburgh 'ard Boys Semi-Finals rules

---------------------------
MISSION #1
I haz a Mezzige!
Objective: VICTORY POINTS

After deployment but before any seize the initiative rolls each player (starting with the player who deployed first) must nominate a single troops unit choice that is not a vehicle or monstrous creature. Select a single model in that unit to be the “Messenger”

Any unit with the messenger or is a transport with the messenger embarked loses the Infiltrate and/or Scouts special rules. In addition, they may not deep strike or be placed into reserve. No special rule may allow the messenger to be placed outside of its deployment zone during deployment

Once per game, if at the end of any game turn a player has their messenger (model not unit) fully inside (base) the opponent’s deployment zone then that player gains 500 bonus victory points.

FOR DEAMON ARMIES: Select one unit of troops to have the messenger as above. This unit must deep strike into your deployment zone. If after scattering any part of the unit would be outside of your deployment zone reduce the distance by the least amount needed to prevent this. When dividing your army ignore the unit with the messenger and add it automatically to the first wave

Deployment: Use pitched battle on page 93 of the rulebook.
Length of Game: This game last 6 turns, or until time is called.

Wipe out Condition: If you destroy all of your opponent’s models you automatically win the game with a minor victory. To determine margin of victory calculate victory points as normal, ignoring any bonus points your opponent may have received for his messenger

Massacre: 1126 to 2500 victory points more than your opponent.
Major Victory: 751 to 1125 victory points more than your opponent.
Minor Victory: 376 to 750 victory points more than your opponent.
Draw: Your total is within 375 victory points of your opponent.

Battle Point Modifiers:
+1 If your opponent has no units fully within your deployment zone.
+1 If you destroy all of your opponent’s elite choices (if they have none you get this automatically.)
+1 If you kill the enemy’s messenger.
+1 If your messenger is alive at the end of the game

-----------------------------------
MISSION #2
Kaptur da Flag!

Objective: At the end of the game the player with the most scoring units within six inches of the center of the board wins the game
.
Deployment: Use Pitched Battle as per page 92 of the main rulebook.

Length of Game: Use random game length or until time is called

Wipeout Condition: If you destroy all of your opponent’s models you automatically win the game and you may continue to play out the remainder of the game (Your opponents turn should be fairly fast) to get units within scoring range. Any victory condition you achieve is raised to the next highest (Example if you have normally would qualify for a minor victory you instead receive a major victory for wiping out your opponent)

Massacre: Have 4 or more scoring units within six inches of the objective than your opponent.
Major Victory: Have 3 or more scoring units within six inches of the objective than your opponent.
Minor Victory: Have 1 or more scoring unit within six inches of the objective than your opponent.
Draw: Both players have the same amount of scoring units within six inches of the center.

Battle Point Modifiers:
+1 If your most expensive HQ choice is within six inches of the objective.
+1 if you have none of your models inside your deployment zone at the end of the game.
+1 If you kill an enemy HQ choice
+1 If you control (as per objectives) more pieces of terrain than your opponent at end of game. (Must be area terrain, ruins, a building or a hill). For purposes of this bonus point all units are scoring except for vehicles, swarm and units that specifically say they cannot score

----------------------------------
MISSION #3

Armies That Go Bump in the Night!

Objective: You have stumbled upon an enemy army and the Warboss hasn’t told you what to do yet. At the start of turn three roll on the following chart to determine both players objective: 1-2 Kill Points (Use normal rules), 3-4 table quarters (See below), 5-6 objectives (See below).

Table Quarters: Divide the board into 4 equal sections. To control a table quarter you must have more scoring units within that quarter than your opponent at the end of the game. Scoring units that are in two or more quarters are considered to be in the table quarter in which the majority of their models occupy, if no majority exists roll a d6 to determine. Each quarter is worth capture points as detailed, Your deployment quarter = 1 CP, Neutral quarters = 2 CPs, Enemy Deployment = 3 CP

Objectives: Place 5 objectives in the center of each table quarter and in the middle of the board. After placing objectives scatter each one 2d6”, ignoring HIT (use arrows). Capturing objectives use standard rules for objectives. Each objective is worth capture points as detailed, Center Objective = 2 CP, Other Objectives = 1 CP

Deployment: Use Spearhead found on page 93 of the rulebook.
Length of Game: Use random game length or until time is called

Wipeout Condition: If you destroy all of your opponent’s models you automatically win the game and you may continue to play out the remainder of the game (Your opponents turn should be fairly fast) to get units within scoring range. Any victory condition you achieve is raised to the next highest tier

Massacre: Score 8 or more kill points or 4 or more Capture Points than your opponent
Major Victory: Score 5 more kill points or 3 or more Capture Points than your opponent
Minor Victory: Have more kill points or capture points than your opponent
Draw: Have equal kill points or Capture Points as your opponent

Battle Point Modifiers:
+1 If you kill an enemy HQ choice
+1 if you’ve destroyed all of your opponents dedicated transports
+1 If your opponent has no units fully within your deployment zone.
+1 If you kill all of your opponents Heavy Supports. (If your opponent doesn’t have any Heavy Support
choices you receive this point automatically)

I am not playing in PA, but I dont know if I like the idea of a TO going out of their way to modify the scenerios for an event like this; (changing the kp advantage needed for massacre, switching terrain to objectives, letting players straddle the line during table quarters). I wouldnt really want to go to this version of Ard Boyz. Are GW missions perfect...no, but I dont think the TO should change some of the mission settings as they see fit. Also....e-mail a copy of the list beforehand. How do you enforce this? What if they dont? I think some finer points of the missions can be clarified, but ID be pissed rolling KP for mission 3 and seeing that I now have to win by 8 KP not 5, or rolling terrain and seeing there are 5 objectives instead of 7-8 terrain pieces.

Just my opinion.

I didnt realize GW was providing the terrain. Think of it from an organizer standpoint and remember GW provides nothing for this event (no manpower, support, etc), other than hastily written missions.

Balancing terrain across a lot of boards is a nightmare from a logistics standpoint, as I said this keeps the same feel but reduces the overhead to a manageable level. This is a tournament with a top prize of around 1000$. Im running the event and I require it to have the fairness the prize deserves.

A LOT of TO's make random rulings in the middle of events, Im putting this all out here clearly and it's how I run things

The email requirement is hardly a big deal. You wrote your list on your computer yes? Click send :p not hard. Honestly it's not an absolute requirement, but it saves ME time cause I gotta validate these lists. (Changed it to a may, instead of a must.. I dont think I intended it to be a big requirement)

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:I am not playing in PA, but I dont know if I like the idea of a TO going out of their way to modify the scenerios for an event like this; (changing the kp advantage needed for massacre, switching terrain to objectives, letting players straddle the line during table quarters). I wouldnt really want to go to this version of Ard Boyz. Are GW missions perfect...no, but I dont think the TO should change some of the mission settings as they see fit. Also....e-mail a copy of the list beforehand. How do you enforce this? What if they dont? I think some finer points of the missions can be clarified, but ID be pissed rolling KP for mission 3 and seeing that I now have to win by 8 KP not 5, or rolling terrain and seeing there are 5 objectives instead of 7-8 terrain pieces.

Just my opinion.

The terrain objective is bad. As Kirasu notes, it's not based in anyway upon the tables or scenery available to the stores. I'll be setting up 20 tables for our regional tournament. Some will 20 pieces of terrain, some have 5. Those 5 are large pieces with multiple levels and together make up more than 25% of the table. If you are scattering small hills and 3" diameter forests around, you'll have a lot more 'objectives' to takee. Larger, more complex, scenic items will have less. It's not going to be fair to have this criteria for scoring differ so greatly from table to table, or to put the onus on TO's to make and provide equal terrain for all tables.

In the case of a TO modifying scenarios: We do it all the time, usually on the fly when you figure out a flaw in the tournament scenario and 40 guys are asking you what GW mean't. In all cases, GW has said to make a ruling, and they'll back the TO on it. Kirasu is mostly just making the rulings ahead of time and letting players know.

Your changes do alter the balance of the missions though.

No dawn of war helps shooting armies a lot.

I'd still rather know all of these rulings ahead of time.

Actually GW changed that! I honestly only really did changes for mission #3 (Btw I got no idea what the rules were for the previous version as I dont read their 1st release, for good reason). I just pulled up the rules today and the deployments are pitched battle, pitched battle, spearhead

Huh, they've changed it so many times it's hard to keep track.

Well, I'm going to have to really think about what I'm going to bring now...

Probably not an army with only 2 scoring units..

Yeah, these missions call for a SAFH, so either razorback spam wolves or IG.

Battlewagon orks with lootas would also be a lot of fun.

All the changes make sense, I really see no issue with them, Mission 3 was horribly worded on the original version.

Trust me you should be thankful that someone is trying to take care of these issues ahead of time instead of deciding on the spot when someone brings it up mid tournament. I'm 100% sure Kirasu will explain all of these changes before we start next Saturday.

As for Terrain, I will be bringing the Snake Eyes terrain library on Friday night to help fill in on the tables.

Warboss Gubbinz wrote:As for Terrain, I will be bringing the Snake Eyes terrain library on Friday night to help fill in on the tables.

Terrain Library? We used one of those about 25 years ago when we first started playing in my basement. That's where you put stacks of books on the floor and toss a green bedsheet over them to make hills? Good times.

hah, That brings back memories of putting books under the plastic warmaster hex grid to use for fantasy...

The third scenario, unless you table your opponent 2/3 of the time a Massacre will be almost impossible.

Even with the change to 8 KP, the chances to get a massacre is much easier than quartes/objectives.
With 4 Quarters you need 3-0
Assuming 5 objectives, you need 4-1 or 3-0

I think that the Scoring Method used in the Pre-Lim Scenario 2 is much better. Since we are using Spearhead Deployment...

Your Starting Quarter/Objective = 1 pt.
The Neutral Quarters/obj = 2 pt.
The Center 12" radius No Man's Land/obj = 3pts.
Your Oponents quarter/obj = 5 pts.

Then the 5/3/1/0 for Mass/Major/Minor/Draw would make a lot more sense, and be more consistent with the KP ratios.

just my 2 spent casings...

I'll be there. Once again representing the eldar of the dark variety. Kirasu you have my list from last time, do you want me to send it?

That's a good point.. It's sorta why I added those wipeout conditions.

Of course I've never really seen two good players wipe one of the others out either


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night's Blood wrote:I'll be there. Once again representing the eldar of the dark variety. Kirasu you have my list from last time, do you want me to send it?

You don't have to use the same list.. Email isn't really all that important, just have it typed

Ok so what do you do for the folks that come to your semi-finals tournament and didnt see these totally different winning conditions for your senerios?

It would suck to spend hours playtesting; claiming terrian; only to find that the store your traveling hours to didnt have enough terrian to play the missions as written so switched to objectives and then uped the kp requirements as well. Not cool not cool at all.

I play at a store that has been open for less than 3 months and has enough terrian to fill 18 tables with 25% terrian. They were left without a semis and your store says the investment to play the missions as written is to much.... Sad my friend..... very sad.

Kirasu wrote:
I reserve the right to make GW's missions more clear and any erratas will be posted here

INAT V.5.0.1 FAQ is being used unless a newer GW official FAQ overrides certain portions

Each round will be 3 hours long (Instead of 2.5). Time will be called at that point

During the final round (3rd) of the event the top 3 tables (1st-6th place) will be able to play out their full game. Due to the large prize for this event I believe in true competition. No one will win an army because they only got to turn 3. This may be extended to additional top tables if the battle point scores are close enough that it is possible for a player in that rank to win

I think this is a very thoughtful approach to running a major event, especially as there is no sportsmanship component. It's not precisely what GW prescribed, but GW has already amended thoughtless errors in the missions. Your modifications are easily understood, were announced with plenty of advanced notice, fair to all players, and have a very legitimate purpose. In fact, even if a player showed up completely unaware of these tweaks, I do not think they would suffer any disadvatage that is not mostly hypothetical.

I'll make it out to Legions some day, but I'm playing semi-finals in Media, PA.

Signed,
Other Voices

keeblerpowell wrote:Ok so what do you do for the folks that come to your semi-finals tournament and didnt see these totally different winning conditions for your senerios?

It would suck to spend hours playtesting; claiming terrian; only to find that the store your traveling hours to didnt have enough terrian to play the missions as written so switched to objectives and then uped the kp requirements as well. Not cool not cool at all.

I play at a store that has been open for less than 3 months and has enough terrian to fill 18 tables with 25% terrian. They were left without a semis and your store says the investment to play the missions as written is to much.... Sad my friend..... very sad.

Explain to me how do you playtest claiming terrain when you have no idea what the terrain will be at the store you're playing? Terrain is simply a metaphor for "objectives" anyway.. But I already answered this question above :p

Kirasu wrote:Explain to me how do you playtest claiming terrain when you have no idea what the terrain will be at the store you're playing? Terrain is simply a metaphor for "objectives" anyway.. But I already answered this question above :p

Ok here is an explanation of how to play test terrain.

Lets say for instance someone is playing nids.(picking nids because its the only army I really know anything about.) They need to figure out just how much synapse they need for the given missions. They play test and figure that they can let gaunt squads close to a terrain feature and then let the synapse walk away to have them fail leadership and lurk into it. This ends up being their way of controlling the feature they need to. They can lurk in the terrain they can't lurk onto an objective marker.


So.... unless they get lucky with the placement of the objectives and they actually end up inside the area terrain all of their play testing is null and void.

All of this also goes on a assumption that the store has terrain features set up such as little cute forests and dirty ruined buildings.

The issue is not having enough terrain...

For the record, I went to Legion last night for the very first time, and I was extremely impressed with the layout and sheer ammount of gaming space and supplies. I have been to GW stores that have less in stock...

There is more than enough terrain to fill 20 tables..

The problem, and I think this is where Kirasu is comming from, is how do you make it such that the winning objectives on every table are consistent and fair? There is a difference between using some trees for terrain and using ruins or a bunker. It changes the dynamic. Also, the logistics of making sure every table has the exact same ammount of terrain, that it is distributed fairly, etc... It is just too much of a headache.

Heck just look at the last scenario, it is already about as unfair as can be. 5KP win, compared to a 3 Quarter to 0 Quarter control? Or 4 to 1 objectives. Especially since 2/3 of the time you will want as many units as possible so will maximize your KP's.

IMO, I want a TO that emphasizes fairness, instead of blind obeyance of half-arsed scenario rules from people who, it can be shown, do not play the game as it is written, but insteaf they play the game narratively. (meaning their "Battle Reports" are ficticious and full of errors, and written for flavor not fact)

I look forward to meeting Kirasu, and seeing how his Tournament goes...

If it wasn't so far away, i could spend many days and nights purging the heretics at Legions..

Ah I must have not known you were there, since Im pretty much there every friday.

After discussing and thinking it over based upon some responses I used GW's system for Objective Points for the 3rd mission so that Table Quarters and objectives are worth different points

This allows for a tactically flexible and good player to get a massacre if they hold a minimum of 2 table quarters (The correct ones) or a major with only holding the opponents, assuming the opponent has none. This brings that difficulty more in line with the kill points which is based upon average # of Kps in most armies

This is the most competitive I can make these missions and they will be final-final missions as opposed to the previous version which was only the final version :p

Im sorry if they dont work for everyone but I put a lot of effort into making them fair instead of gimmicky. I hope this will reduce Noobstomping and rock/paper/scissors and lead to the best player winning. Tournament integrity comes first

IF YOU HAVE ANY FAQ QUESTIONS ask me before the event