Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This may be a little bit of a rant.

Before you say,"Well he plays orks a lot, of course he's sick of them! hear me out. I don't care that they blow up vehicles or are really inexpensive. I am annoyed that people think they are soooooo good that they feel the need to spam them. Not for the vehicle killing power but for the perceived 'effectiveness' against footsloggers. It's just not there people. How many games do I have to sit through 4-5 rounds of 15+ missile templates shooting at my orks, , only to kill about 5-7 every turn before people realize that it's probably better to shoot up some crack instead? That's right I said it! Here's why. When footsloggers are arranged like the 5 on a d6 at 2" coherency you can't put a small template over more than one and if it drifts you might hit two. Do the math from there and quit wasting my time.

I feel where you are coming from, but it is rare that a footslogger list will be able to maintain that perfect 5 formation on a real board. When they don't, Frag shines.

It also works great against anything that deepstrikes, disembarked models, etc, so on. Against terminators, it can work better than krak. Against models in cover, it can work better than krak (especially since people tend to bunch up in cover).

TLDR: You have to know when to use Frag and when to use Krak. In general, people do not understand that.

I agree with both of you. If you can only hit one model on a hit, you should probably go with krak. But there are tons of situations where frag missles can be a benefit. I assume you use trukks. If I blow up one of your trukks, then all the boyz inside have to get out, and I am going to bet that you won't be able to deploy them all within two inches of the vehicle and still maintain the 'no blast template' formation.

That being said, I play Marines, and I don't really use missle launchers all that often. My lists contain mostly multi-meltas (since I run Vulkan).

Bat Manuel wrote:I don't care that they blow up vehicles or are really inexpensive. I am annoyed that people think they are soooooo good that they feel the need to spam them.

People think that because it's true. You get a decent anti-horde weapon and a decent anti-tank weapon at once. You're never going to run out of targets. Why would you pay extra for a lascannon when you might as well have the missile launcher that does anti-tank almost as well and anti-horde much better?

When facing horde orks, I actually am hoping for the average 3" drift which will get my at least 2 orks per blast.


you waste my time making sure you are in the Anti-template formation, I waste your time with my templates.

Blast markers also do NOT require a roll to hit, so I will almost never miss completely. something that could happen with a krak missile.


the blast is better then krak against orks because it will almost always get at least 1 hit.

I love it when people spam Missile launchers.

They bounce off my Liths like rain Few things are more satisfying that drawing a SW player with Longfang Missilespam and watching 15 Krak missiles jsut patter off the hull.

(A smart one uses them on other targets than the Lith, which is much uglier, but they always seem to aim for the Lith)

Frag doesn't work too well on anything with a decent armour save.

My orks are less fond of missilespam, but they have proppa Orksy Rokkitspam to fire back, and Kannon.

Kannon are dodgy Missile Launchers, and Rokkits are Assault weapons for orks

Ascalam wrote:(A smart one uses them on other targets than the Lith, which is much uglier, but they always seem to aim for the Lith)

Seriously?

That's the worst possible place to put a krak against 'crons. Are they hoping for to glance it to death? Cause that isn't going to happen. On the flip side, Krak is good to great against every other model in your army.

Ascalam wrote:I love it when people spam Missile launchers.

Frag doesn't work too well on anything with a decent armour save.

It does when you hit a lot because they have just deepstruck.

I wounded my buddies tactical squad, that had just used Gate of Infinity, 18 times.

He lost 6 marines to that volley (6 out of 10 is a good kill count from one unit)

Let's see footslogging orks ~~Check!
2" coherency on each squad ~~Check!

Who is wasting who's time?
Minimum 21 models, maximum 61 models with basic Force Chart.

DeathReaper wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
Frag doesn't work too well on anything with a decent armour save.

It does when you hit a lot because they have just deepstruck.
I wounded my buddies tactical squad, that had just used Gate of Infinity, 18 times.
He lost 6 marines to that volley (6 out of 10 is a good kill count from one unit)

Hehe. This.

I played against a GK terminator army. He was really happy and told me he wasn't worried about the Longfang missile launchers because krak is only AP3. I tell him "Oh that's okay, I probably won't use the krak." A lot of termies wish that they wore their helmets that day.

UsdiThunder wrote:Let's see footslogging orks ~~Check!
2" coherency on each squad ~~Check!

Who is wasting who's time?
Minimum 21 models, maximum 61 models with basic Force Chart.

I play my orks faster than most people play with mech so my initial comment stands.

pretre wrote:

Ascalam wrote:(A smart one uses them on other targets than the Lith, which is much uglier, but they always seem to aim for the Lith)

Seriously?

That's the worst possible place to put a krak against 'crons. Are they hoping for to glance it to death? Cause that isn't going to happen. On the flip side, Krak is good to great against every other model in your army.

Fraid so. It seem to be an irresistible target

When they are bright enough to aim for my destroyers, wraiths, warrior squads .. and in fact anything that isn't a Lith they do a lot better. I've tried telling them this flat out I think part of the issue is that i'm the only regular Cron player where I play, so they are unused to dealing with Liths. A common attitude seems to be to take out the biggest thing first and work down


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Ascalam wrote:I love it when people spam Missile launchers.

Frag doesn't work too well on anything with a decent armour save.

It does when you hit a lot because they have just deepstruck.

I wounded my buddies tactical squad, that had just used Gate of Infinity, 18 times.

He lost 6 marines to that volley (6 out of 10 is a good kill count from one unit)

True.

I almost never get to deepstrike anything with a decent save (except Liths ) , playing Orks and Crons (and disliking VOD )

The solution would be to RUN after deepstriking, unless you have a very pressing need to shoot.. Makes it far harder to get templated to death. I've run up impressive kill tallies with Grotzookas agaist armies that like to travel in a group hug all the time.

That said frag works even better in that situation on folks with poor armour saves

MLs are cool

Don't play people who run Space Wolves spam lists.

Kilkrazy wrote:Don't play people who run Space Wolves spam lists.

Heeeyyyy. That's not nice. :(

Maybe he was talking about IG missile spam. or Deathwing, more realistically.

I've just seen it creep into any list that can take. Vanilla, Black Templar, Deathwing. It's just boring.


....and the only time I really get to play is at tournaments so avoiding it isn't really a possibility.

The last Space Marines list I wrote had a Missile Launcher, a Plasma Cannon, and a Heavy Bolter as its heavy weapons for Tactical Squads. No Devastators. I wrote it for my mom to use against my Sisters. [It will also be used against Eldar and Orks.]

The Plasma Cannon tends to be particularly effective against my Sisters, historically, because of my tendency to underestimate exactly how far 2" is, so I crowd my minis in so I can't possibly be out of coherency. Terrible habit, emphasized when one plasma cannon, in one shot, burned 9 Sisters to Death. A second plasma cannon in the same round of shooting claimed the lives of 6 others in a second squad. Neither of these shots scattered.

The problem is that the missile launcher is too much of an all-rounder to avoid. Ok so I only hit 1 ork with my frag. But I also automatically hit it, so that way I can avoid the roll to hit. Which I always fail for the krak. So that right there is worth it. Plus it also has the str8 krak, so it can shoot at transports. And very often they are free, or much cheaper than anything else.

pretre wrote:Maybe he was talking about IG missile spam.

IG missile spam?

Why would an IG player spam missiles when he can spam tanks use the cheaper and more reliable autocannon to open op transports instead? Or spam manticores. Or spam artillery. Or spam hellhounds. Or spam flamer vets. Or... hell, ANYTHING other than missile launchers on BS3 models?

MLs are also the cheapest option for a Tactical squads, the most common vanilla SM unit.
Along with HBs?

I'll always take MLs with the basic troops, unless I know who I'm playing.

I think ML are boring to use, and I never have any luck with them anyway. So far I have one ML in my army, and the most I might get is a second on another tac squad.

I much prefer to use my ravenwing melta bikes for anti-tank and the rest of my army for the anti-infantrtry

They're Heavy. People don't spam them on fast lists, like White Scars. I have 1 ML. And I'm not intending to get any more.

TO substitute, I do have 10 billion trillion twin-linked bolters for chowing Orks up

Bat Manuel wrote:I've just seen it creep into any list that can take. Vanilla, Black Templar, Deathwing. It's just boring.


....and the only time I really get to play is at tournaments so avoiding it isn't really a possibility.

So the one thing keeping Templars and DA competitive is boring? Oh sorry, I guess I'll pick up Grey Knights as main army instead so I don't bore anyone with my CMLs...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:I've just seen it creep into any list that can take. Vanilla, Black Templar, Deathwing. It's just boring.


....and the only time I really get to play is at tournaments so avoiding it isn't really a possibility.

So the one thing keeping Templars and DA competitive is boring? Oh sorry, I guess I'll pick up Grey Knights as main army instead so I don't bore anyone with my CMLs...

Yup


I wasn't aware that was the one thing keeping them competitive.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:Maybe he was talking about IG missile spam.

IG missile spam?

Why would an IG player spam missiles when he can spam tanks use the cheaper and more reliable autocannon to open op transports instead? Or spam manticores. Or spam artillery. Or spam hellhounds. Or spam flamer vets. Or... hell, ANYTHING other than missile launchers on BS3 models?

It was a joke. Hence the smiley face. Geeze, get off my stuff.

I was picking on kilkrazy for assuming he was talking about SW.

Being a Marine player I tend to field 3 to 4 missile launchers as standard against any army I play. However I 99% of the time favour krak over frag as I much prefer to instant death what I hit than risk getting no kills trying to spam template.

However I wouldn't write frags off completely, there are those moments where a rhino full of Chaos are forced to disembark into a cramped spot making the use of frag much more tempting.

It's a versitile cheap weapon. Of course it's gonna get spammed. Frag works great against Orks, Nids, Necrons, and any other 10+ troop army. Plus the fact you can switch over to krak, Hell yeah it's gonna see a lot of play.

I truly hate them, the are only 10p but are so ineffective for my type of army. I use plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I truly hate them, the are only 10p but are so ineffective for my type of army. I use plasma.

My Tac marines use missile launchers because they are free and HBs and MMs suck on tactical squads.

I take a missile launcher with every tactical squad just because its free, let's me camp on objectives and still shoot at stuff, and has long range. Personally I mix between the two firing modes, for necrons I fire krak rounds for anything else its frag time!