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Has anyone ever nailed down the relationship between 40K and WFB?
The going story I've heard (though not, to my knowledge, validated by GW) is WFB being Year 0.

In reading the Eldar Codex, (Eldar Codex 4E, pg 5, for the sticklers) it clearly states that the birth of Slaanesh calmed the warp, and allowed for the Emperor to embark upon his Great Crusade roughly in 30K.
If that's true, and WFB is set in Year 0, then why are Slaaneshi units even available in WFB? If it's not true, then when (and where) does WFB sit in the storyline?

Thanks!

D

From this, it seems your assuming WFB and 40k are both set in the same universe, but seperated by timeline?

My personal theory is that they are seperate unvierses, possibly connected through the Realm of Chaos (in older editions of WFB fluff included Chaos Champions with 'Alien Technology' and Guns)

It was retconned out, but the WHFB world was in the eye of terror somewhere. Though with the change the universes aren't really related anymore.

n0t_u wrote:It was retconned out, but the WHFB world was in the eye of terror somewhere. Though with the change the universes aren't really related anymore.

Good to know. Any chance you can recall the source for this?

Thanks!

D

I consulted the dark god gog-gule, and after making a glorious sacrifice of text he whispered something in my ear.

He told me to have a gander at the liber chaotica books... although considering the price of them I told him to jog on.

They were once set in the same universe a while back. GW has since distanced themselves from it, although the Liber Chaotica could, emphasis on could, bring forth certain tid-bits to reaffirm the connection again.

That's what I remember as well - that the two worlds started out in the same setting, but that this connection was later retconned out of existence much like the squats. I'm relying on very common hearsay here, though, as I've never read anything about this from an actual GW source myself.

daemonhunter187 wrote:If that's true, and WFB is set in Year 0, then why are Slaaneshi units even available in WFB?

Well, keep in mind that "year 0" doesn't have to mean 0 A.D. in the 40k sense (or did they say that?) - it could well be a local time, for the Old World is clearly not medieval Earth. Meaning, the WFB setting could, in theory, be a Feudal world (former human colony) in the 40k setting - possibly in the Eye of Terror if n0t_u is right.

We actually did a crossover in our RPG once. My Norscan still has that magic fire-caster that actually is a Cadian storm lighter dropped by one of those strange people. Gonna be pissed when that thing runs out of fuel.

Well, I disagree with this bit:

Lynata wrote:the Old World is clearly not medieval Earth

If you are someone who isn't terribly knowledgeable about the fluff, but has a basic grasp of world geography, it is 'clear' that the Old World IS medieval Earth, with some magic and dragons added.

Naggaroth = North America
Lustria = South America
Southlands + Desert = Africa
Albion = UK
Estalia = Spain
Bretonnia = France
Empire = Germany + Eastern Europe
Chaos Wastes = Scandinavia
Ogre Kingdoms = Russia
Ind = India
Cathay = China
Nippon = Japan

The only thing out of place is Ulthuan. So, keeping that in mind, it is easy to see why someone who doesn't know all that much about the fluff, including obscure out of print stuff that many of the people on here are aware of, it really isn't that far fetched of a theory. 40K is fiction, so the Warhammer world could very easily just be an alternate reality, where Earth was tainted by Chaos and thus we have all the magic and dragons and elves and all that.

Now, of course this isn't the case, and even if it was, it has been retconned anyway as people have stated. However, I just wanted to point out that the OP wasn't totally off his rocker, and I can see where he is coming from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, to the OP, like the previous posters stated it used to be that the Warhammer world was one of the millions in the Imperium, not yet reached by the civilized folk and left to be a feudal world. It was also theorized way back when that Sigmar was one of the missing primarchs. Again, however, this was all retconned and the two universes have no relation now, although the Chaos gods existing in multiple realities simultaneously isn't too far of a stretch.

lledwey wrote:
The only thing out of place is Ulthuan.

It's Atlantis.

lledwey wrote:with some magic and dragons added

That was pretty much what I was getting at.

The Old World also has two moons, though I don't know how much that is stressed in the background. I'm actually not really an expert on WFB fluff, I'm basically basing my posts on this topic on the little bits I checked up on as preparation for the aforementioned RPG campaign.

That said, I found that the WFRP Tome of Corruption also contains lots of inspiration useful for 40k. The Chaos Gods pretty much work the same, after all! Worth buying if you like to read that sort of stuff.

40k Fluff has gotten way too complicated and unique to be connected to FB anymore. Originally 40k was just FB in space. Its really has branched out on its own, and they're separate universes.

Lynata wrote:

The Old World also has two moons, though I don't know how much that is stressed in the background.

If we take Holy Terra as Earth (which we can sadly say it is, as it is often called Earth), then the Earth has two moons, Luna and Cruithne (I think that's how it's spelt( Seven if you count assorted other natural satellites. Therefore, they could be the same.

Small, Far Away wrote:If we take Holy Terra as Earth (which we can sadly say it is, as it is often called Earth), then the Earth has two moons, Luna and Cruithne (I think that's how it's spelt( Seven if you count assorted other natural satellites. Therefore, they could be the same.

Where did you read about that? Not saying you're wrong, but this is actually the first time I hear about a second moon, and though Lexicanum is definitively not a reliable source, it too does not mention anything about two moons - in fact, it is very specific about there only being one: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sol_System

There is something called "Earth's second moon" in real life ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3753_Cruithne ) but as this stellar body is actually orbiting the sun and you cannot see it with your bare eye, I don't think a comparison to the Old World's two large and true-orbit moons is viable.

Now, I don't want to discount the possibility that GW's writers have turned that RL Cruithne into a second moon either by accident or by some weird story ("switching orbits" during a pass or so), but ...

Could also be a cleverly disguised Inquisitorial space station.

It's not, and it's real obvious that the WFB Old World is not "medieval Terra", with two moons, one of them somehow being an "Inquisitorial space-station", since the Inquisition is still some 35,000 years in the future of medieval Earth.

Terra of 40K is Earth. They mention specific continents and real-world locales in the backstory of the establishment of the Imperial Palace and so forth.

The Old World is, yes, loosely based on the appearance of Earth... but it's not Earth. It has, at various times in the storyline, been an Old Ones bio-preserve, where Humans, Orks, Squats, three kinds of Eldar, Zoats, Ratlings, Ogryn and basically every example of non-Tyranid life in the 40K galaxy was represented, a world trapped in a Warp Storm that had featured all of these races, and regressed to a Feudal state, forgetting entirely that they were ever members of a galaxy-spanning empire, or a tongue-in-cheek "what if" world that could, possibly, maybe, one day grow up to be Holy Terra of the Imperium of Man.... but that fluff was erased twenty years ago. The original Realms of Chaos hardbacks make some references and allusions to this possibility, but nothing ever comes right out and says it.

I find it exceedingly ironic that the Dark Elves of the Old World are Canadians. If you play WFB and your DE army isn't saying "eh", you're doing it wrong.

But, yeah... Old World... two moons, one made out of Warpstone or something... faces show up in it sometimes. Definitely "Not-Terra".

In the old days, 40k was Fantesy in space.

but when GW started fleshing out the fluff, they broke the connection and had it simply be the real world 40,000 years in the future. with humanity originating from Terra.



the Warhammer World bears a loose resemblance to the geography of Earth because its an alternate reality for our own time.

If that's true, and WFB is set in Year 0, then why are Slaaneshi units even available in WFB? If it's not true, then when (and where) does WFB sit in the storyline?

To answer this question directly...

That is Year 0 from the point of view of the Old World, not the Galaxy at large. Since the Old World and Terra are not the same planet, they might even be existing concurrently (a popular fan concept), that "Year 0" is not necessarily the same Year 0 to the rest of the Galaxy.

Psienesis wrote:It's not, and it's real obvious that the WFB Old World is not "medieval Terra", with two moons, one of them somehow being an "Inquisitorial space-station", since the Inquisition is still some 35,000 years in the future of medieval Earth.

Where does it say there is a space-station?

The Old World is, yes, loosely based on the appearance of Earth... but it's not Earth. It has, at various times in the storyline, been an Old Ones bio-preserve, where Humans, Orks, Squats, three kinds of Eldar, Zoats, Ratlings, Ogryn and basically every example of non-Tyranid life in the 40K galaxy was represented, a world trapped in a Warp Storm that had featured all of these races, and regressed to a Feudal state, forgetting entirely that they were ever members of a galaxy-spanning empire.

That is what I favor. In particular, the Necron Codex says the Old Ones' civilization collapsed, however later in that Codex it also says there are still degenerate descendants of the Old Ones around and to use WHFB Lizardmen to represent them, strongly hinting that the Old Ones are Slann.

The Slaanesh Daemon Prince N'kari makes an appearance in WHFB yet is also a Daemon Prince in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex where it is stated he was raised up from a backward world isolated by warp storms (i.e. WHFB) and that he fought in the Heresy on Horus's barge during the final attack by the Emperor.

More recently, GW stated in the WHFB Lizardmen book that Orks were an unintended race, possibly brought to the WHFB world as spores on board the Old Ones' ships.

So though GW have not outright stated it nor would they these days acknowledge any explicit link, they still occasionally give nudges and winks.

Thus in my own vision of things:

The WHFB is a stronghold of a handful of Old Ones who flee to the world (with a few Ork spores hitching a ride) through the polar warp gates and wrap the solar system in impenetrable warp storms, created and maintained through arcane Old One magic/technology (perhaps some of those monolithic structures on the WHFB world). They tinker with the WHFB world and bring or re-create samples of their servant races such as the Eldar/Elves and races they want to experiment on further, such as humans. The Old Ones create new generations, but these Slann (except for the 1st generation ones) never see the Old Ones and grow to revere them as gods instead of simply their ancestors.

Something goes wrong with the warp gates, perhaps the birth of Slaanesh, causing the gates to collapse. The Old Ones die or flee, abandoning the world. Without guidance, the Slann are left in a degenerate state (like Lord of the Flies) trying to muddle their way through the rituals they were taught and trying to enact the Old Ones' original plan without really knowing why.

As for why the Chaos gods haven't sent CSM through? In the old original Realms of Chaos books, it states the Chaos gods sometimes imposed conditions on their battles for worlds, ranging from the bizarre such as no warriors being allowed to die, to frivolous such as forbidding the color purple. Why not a rule stating only daemons and indigenous Chaos followers permitted?

Iracundus wrote:In the old original Realms of Chaos books, it states the Chaos gods sometimes imposed conditions on their battles for worlds, ranging from the bizarre such as no warriors being allowed to die, to frivolous such as forbidding the color purple.

Iracundus wrote:Where does it say there is a space-station?

Further up-thread, someone suggested that the 2nd moon of the Old World was actually an Inquisitorial space-station, and the Old World was actually historic Terra.

As for why the Chaos gods haven't sent CSM through? In the old original Realms of Chaos books, it states the Chaos gods sometimes imposed conditions on their battles for worlds, ranging from the bizarre such as no warriors being allowed to die, to frivolous such as forbidding the color purple. Why not a rule stating only daemons and indigenous Chaos followers permitted?

Ah, yes.... such broken, broken rulesets.

Want to piss off your opponent in old-school WHFB? Was he playing Chaos?

"The Gods decree that, on this day, the color red shall not be worn. Nor shall pink, crimson or russet be seen upon this field!"

.. put all those Khornate and Slaaneshi troops back in the box, kids, cause they're painted the wrong colors for this battle!

They could just proxy them into being blue though.

What about the eldar then, they were around for a long time before earth was even created. Surely that technology etc would of been about for fantasy times right? lol

I know there used to be a theory that WHFB was a world within the eye or terror and that Sigmar was a lost primarch but I figured they are two entirely different universes with no connection.

I remember that theory as well, but in the time since then, I think they have come to create a birth/life/death story for Sigmar.

Somebody invents a machine to go to different universes and Inquisitors land on the world of WHFB. MAGIC TIME!!

The warp did it.

Slaneesh was made out of the fall of the eldar empire, which started before Humanities ancestors crawled out of the ocean, so slaneesh was not made around 30k, it was waaaaaaay before that

Botten3 wrote:Slaneesh was made out of the fall of the eldar empire, which started before Humanities ancestors crawled out of the ocean, so slaneesh was not made around 30k, it was waaaaaaay before that

That is completely incorrect. The final fall if the Eldar empire occurred approximately in 30K. We know this from the Dark Eldar Codex timeline (which gives the date to the nearest millennium) which shows the gradual increasing decadence of the Eldar empire and weakening of the Eldar pantheon after the founding of Commorragh. All this occurred over a period of several thousand years only.

Botten3 wrote:Slaneesh was made out of the fall of the eldar empire, which started before Humanities ancestors crawled out of the ocean, so slaneesh was not made around 30k, it was waaaaaaay before that

Chronology gets rather wibbly-wobbly and timey-wimey there - Slaanesh's 'gestation' (for want of a better word) is attributed in the fluff as the cause of the warp storms which brought about the end of the Golden Age (or Dark Age of Technology as Imperial times have dubbed it) while his actual 'birth' ended them. We know the cessation of warp storms - and thus Slaanesh's emergence - occurred in M30, allowing the Great Crusade to begin, while the Dark Age of Technology is said to have ended, beginning the Age of Strife in M25. How both the Eldar and Humanity can, as differing fluff claims, have both ruled the galaxy at this point remains to be made clear. The least messy explanation would be that the collapse of the Eldar empire began long before the warp disturbances caused by Slaanesh became apparent - its decline perhaps hastened by humanity's rise, or that the Eldar in fact only conquered (or reconquered) the galaxy after M25. Either way, the actual emergence of Slaanesh and the resultant calming of the warp in M30 is one of the few generally accepted pre-Imperial dates we have.

Botten3 wrote:Slaneesh was made out of the fall of the eldar empire, which started before Humanities ancestors crawled out of the ocean, so slaneesh was not made around 30k, it was waaaaaaay before that

Which of course throws off the idea that Slaanesh's birth cries allowed the Great Crusade to start. Which brings me to the main point here.

GW has stated that Canon in both 40k and Fantasy is a loose idea. Many things have survived, many ideas remain (sometimes because their codex doesn't get updated for a decade...) But all in all, GW has, and will, be very frivolous with how they edit their material. Hell, the Grey Knights changed dramatically just last CODEX. The only constant is over the top and Space Marines.

And for my idea? I like the "Hidden in the Eye of Terror" theory, protected only by Slann technology and the odd whims of the Chaos Gods. I could seriously see them imposing a "No CSM or high tech" rule, just for gaks and giggles. Hell, they rarely care enough about mortals to even make the majority of their followers Daemons to give them an upper hand, why should they be so eager to annihilate a planet that can be so FUN!