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the Space Marines and all Imperium are criticized for their false belief in a rotting corpse so who is in the right?

Everyone in 40k is wrong to some degree. It's a horrible, miserable place to live. You're either pure evil (Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons) worshipping uncaring or dead gods (Eldar, Imperials) or just don't give a damn and wreck stuff because it's right n' Orky.

It's a universe of greys, with no real good guys or bad guys. We're expected to root for the Imperium because they're human, as we are.

Commissar41.0 wrote:the Space Marines and all Imperium are criticized for their false belief in a rotting corpse so who is in the right?

Everyone is wrong... But everyone is also right.

Warhammer 40k is space opera. Everything is larger than life and over the top. it's also a tragedy: If the Emperor hadn't been struck down by his own son, everythign would be perfect happy land. But it isn't, so now everything sucks. And because of the space opera aspect, it sucks more than anything has ever sucked before.

It's not my favorite setting, but when I'm in the mood for that kind of weirdness it works.

The Emperor at least did have the good of humanity in mind, it's what separates him from the Chaos Gods, C'tan, and so on.

Commissar41.0 wrote:the Space Marines and all Imperium are criticized for their false belief in a rotting corpse so who is in the right?

No, they are not.

What are you trying to say?

The Tau, Humans on fringe settlements, Rogue Traders, Exodites and a few other have reasonably decent lives free of tyrannical oppression.

Is this the start of another Brother_Coa or Magtherion_Soulsaver?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Commissar41.0 wrote:the Space Marines and all Imperium are criticized for their false belief in a rotting corpse so who is in the right?

No, they are not.

What are you trying to say?

That he has listend to the raving of HERETICS!!!
*BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM*

Chaos live to feth things up
Imperium live to make sure things don't feth up.
Orks take stuff.
Tyranids. Just kill things.
Eldar try not to die.
Etc, etc.

And your supposed to be a Commisar...

The Imperium is in the right.

The God-Emperor, though not truly alive, in the sense that mortals may consider it, is not dead. The God-Emperor has ascended to the Golden Throne, where he engages in ceaseless vigilance and unending battle with the monstrosities of the Warp.

It is Mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars, and this will be made so through war, thus some men must die so that Man may live.

Again, don't think about it... Thought begets Heresy. Heresy begets Retribution.

Commissar41.0 wrote:the Space Marines and all Imperium are criticized for their false belief in a rotting corpse so who is in the right?

It's not so much who is right.

The Imperium does some questionable things, but what they do and strive for is not nearly as bad as the horror of a galaxy ruled by the C'tan, or one enthralled by Chaos.

The Imperium is pretty paranoid, cruel and insane. The Emperor is pretty much dead and even he, a huge jerk (look at what he did to poor Lorgar and how he treated Alpharius and Omegon) would be horrified by what it had become in his name. The Eldar and Tau definitely less 'evil'. However Chaos is worse most of the time.

Commissar41.0 wrote:the Space Marines and all Imperium are criticized for their false belief in a rotting corpse so who is in the right?

Quote the opposite....
Emperor is feeding on souls of psykers to remain strong + every Imperial citizen that pray to him gives him emotional strength in Warp. That makes the Emperor as powerful as any Chaos God. Sometimes even powerful to bless his warriors in battle and crucial moments ( SoB acts of faith and Storm of Emperor's wrath ).

Brother Coa wrote:Quote the opposite....
Emperor is feeding on souls of psykers to remain strong + every Imperial citizen that pray to him gives him emotional strength in Warp. That makes the Emperor as powerful as any Chaos God. Sometimes even powerful to bless his warriors in battle and crucial moments ( SoB acts of faith and Storm of Emperor's wrath ).

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath has never been proven to be his doing, only attributed to him by mortals, who are kind of biased.

Also, well, don't think it has been said if the prayers of the Imperium power him... In fact, given his adamant refusal of being worship, it might power the Chaos Gods.

And then again - you have nothing to disapprove this.
And Sister of Battle act's of faith are the prof of Emperor's power. So it is written in their codex.
And in the same was the Chaos cultist fuel Chaos Gods - Imperial loyalist fuel Emperor trough their prayers. And probably all their souls are after death consumed by the Emperor unless being taken by Chaos Gods or Daemons.

The Emperor would have liked to have not been worshiped. He wanted to do away with all of religious beliefs and practices... but that was simply not to be.

Of course, the Emperor wanted a lot of things for humanity, but Horus sent those dreams down the crapper. So, the Imperium is what we get.

Given the way that all these other spiritual beings work in the 40K universe, I'm not so sure the Emperor has a choice about accepting the psycho-emotional energies sent his way through the Warp from his trillions of faithful followers.

Brother Coa wrote:And then again - you have nothing to disapprove this.
And Sister of Battle act's of faith are the prof of Emperor's power. So it is written in their codex.
And in the same was the Chaos cultist fuel Chaos Gods - Imperial loyalist fuel Emperor trough their prayers. And probably all their souls are after death consumed by the Emperor unless being taken by Chaos Gods or Daemons.

That's not how logic works.
They claim it is a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose, it's not proven to be. Though, I didn't claim the Emperor has no influence. That's you strawmanning my post. Don't do it.
The Chaos Cultists are proven to fuel the Chaos Gods though, that's the difference, one is proven to be fact, the other is not.
The whole "Being with the Emperor" thing after death is propaganda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:The Emperor would have liked to have not been worshiped. He wanted to do away with all of religious beliefs and practices... but that was simply not to be.

Of course, the Emperor wanted a lot of things for humanity, but Horus sent those dreams down the crapper. So, the Imperium is what we get.

Given the way that all these other spiritual beings work in the 40K universe, I'm not so sure the Emperor has a choice about accepting the psycho-emotional energies sent his way through the Warp from his trillions of faithful followers.

As I understand it, he was trying to starve Chaos by destroying religion, because religion fuelled Chaos.

If he was able to focus all that prayer into empowering himself, which would also starve Chaos, why wouldn't he?

Void__Dragon wrote:
That's not how logic works.
They claim it is a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose, it's not proven to be. Though, I didn't claim the Emperor has no influence. That's you strawmanning my post. Don't do it.
The Chaos Cultists are proven to fuel the Chaos Gods though, that's the difference, one is proven to be fact, the other is not.
The whole "Being with the Emperor" thing after death is propaganda.

No...
Proven from the Chaos point of view, not Imperial. And Emperor has GREAT influence in the galaxy even in his present state. ( Emperor's Tarot ).
Chaos Cultist fueling the Chaos Gods may be Chaos Propaganda to ( but they must be fueling them, because it was stated that Chaos Gods feed on emotions of living beings ).
However, the same logic would then work with the Emperor who also has a presence in the warp ( big one in fact ) and if Chaos cultist fuel Chaos Gods - Imperial loyalist them must be fueling the Emperor in the same manner. He also get 1000 psykers per day.
Unless you have the official fluff source that contradicts this...

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
That's not how logic works.
They claim it is a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose, it's not proven to be. Though, I didn't claim the Emperor has no influence. That's you strawmanning my post. Don't do it.
The Chaos Cultists are proven to fuel the Chaos Gods though, that's the difference, one is proven to be fact, the other is not.
The whole "Being with the Emperor" thing after death is propaganda.

No...
Proven from the Chaos point of view, not Imperial. And Emperor has GREAT influence in the galaxy even in his present state. ( Emperor's Tarot ).
Chaos Cultist fueling the Chaos Gods may be Chaos Propaganda to ( but they must be fueling them, because it was stated that Chaos Gods feed on emotions of living beings ).
However, the same logic would then work with the Emperor who also has a presence in the warp ( big one in fact ) and if Chaos cultist fuel Chaos Gods - Imperial loyalist them must be fueling the Emperor in the same manner. He also get 1000 psykers per day.
Unless you have the official fluff source that contradicts this...

The Emperor isn't a chaos god...

Yes. There is ambiguity in this setting. Well spotted.

Everyone is right in their own perspective. As we can see it from every faction's point of view however we know this isn't true. All the races look out for themselves and have little to no interest in the survival of the others unless it works against them. This is the entire point of a grimdark universe. Of course as an omniscient viewer you will come into your own opinion on who is more right.

Although I will like to say the Emperor isn't a corpse as of yet, that is Chaos propaganda. If he were dead then nothing would be plugging the gap between the warp created when the webway failed, and the astronomicon would have failed already.

Brother SRM wrote:It's a universe of greys, with no real good guys or bad guys. We're expected to root for the Imperium because they're human, as we are.

Yes on the first, no on the second. There are no good guys, but there are plenty of bad guys. Dark Eldar, necrons, and the Chaos Gods are unambiguously Evil.

It's the Nazis against the forces of Hell. It's pretty obvious who you're rooting for, but that doesn't make them good guys.

"Exitus Acta Probat" - Let the outcome justify the deeds.

one of the things i love in warhammer 40k is that there is NO good or bad guy. its all a matter of perspective. Good and evil is based on the perception of those individual people, in the moment, at that time.

In one novel, Ultramarines are depicted as being cold and callous, and in the next novel, Uriel Ventris is doing everything he can to save people from being killed by the C'tan or eaten by the Nids.

In the same Novels, The inquisition is depicted as being calculating but not without some measure of compassion, and in another, they are depicted as being utterly without compromise and any compassion twoards their fellow man at all.

no one is right. The necrons dont care, and love only to serve their god, and have no problems killing for that purpose.

Eldar are a dying race, and are often misconceived as being the tragic heroes of the universe, but make no mistake, they have nothing but contempt for human kind and see us as lower life forms that should eventually be dealt with.

Chaos is hell. pure and simple. live to kill, and kill to live in that world, and its a demon eat demon world.

Grey Knights and the holy inquisition are often painted as the solemn line in the sand against he evil chaos, but have no compulsion about nuking an entire planet to stop a demon host. in fact, its the demon hunters codex that says it best "better 100 men fall before the emperor than one man kneel to the demon"

nids just have a different take on things, and by different, they just want to eat everything. that's pretty damn evil in and of itself.

Imperial Guard are the average joe, and are the normal man caught up in incredible circumstances, so its easy to feel for them, but really, the would shell their home town into splinters if it meant getting out of the guard 1 day earlier. they dont want to be there, they hate their job, know their going to die doing it, and as a result, dont care what happens to anyone else. Commisars and officers are the worst, as they also have plenty of people they can SEND to go do the dying, so its especially bad for them.

Space marines are the defenders of humanity, and also its subjugation. bear in mind, during the great crusade, the emperor didnt "offer to join" he didnt "make peace" he didnt "offer the olive branch". he SUBJUGATED world. thats a really nice way of saying join or die. space marines are his living will.

the closest thing to the good guys in the warhammer universe are the tau. they just want to be left alone and build their own empire. or do they? they have plans of conquest and are more than willing to get with and allow people to join, so long as they are communist and beleive in the greater good. God forbid you have an origional thought though, because if you do, you will die for it. individualism is not looked upon well in the empire.

there are no good buys, no good teams, no good chapters, no good craftworlds, only good people, like Uriel, Pasanius, Gaunt, and Cain.

everyone else is by and large, very evil.

purplefood wrote:
The Emperor isn't a chaos god...

Not now, but he will e ( according to Star Child theory ), and he still have strong presence in the Warp.

40K is just everyone fighting to survive, Except Orks and 'crons who just fight to kill

Sc077y wrote:"Exitus Acta Probat" - Let the outcome justify the deeds.


Space marines are the defenders of humanity, and also its subjugation. bear in mind, during the great crusade, the emperor didnt "offer to join" he didnt "make peace" he didnt "offer the olive branch". he SUBJUGATED world. thats a really nice way of saying join or die. space marines are his living will.

Incorrect.
Many worlds joined the Imperium during the Great Crusade out of percieved bonds of brotherhood between humans - think Caliban for example, or that world where the population all wore masks (Ignace Karkasy landed there if I'm not mistaken). Deathwatch supplements tell the stroy of Jericho Reach, where many worlds joined the Imperium again without any bloodshed. There are some worlds, like Aurum, where DIPLOMATIC attempts are being made to bring the world to the light of the Emperor.

Worlds are only subjugated when they refuse to join the Imperium, and the Imperium really needs that certain piece of rock.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
The Emperor isn't a chaos god...

Not now, but he will e ( according to Star Child theory ), and he still have strong presence in the Warp.

Star child theory has been retconned as complete and utter mad rantings of a splinter cult who were cleansed.

The first two posters got it right in my opinion. You are logically going to deem your own race as being in the right and everyone else being wrong. So if you play Marines then anything non human/adeptus is going to be evil. If you play chaos then anyone not worshiping your god will be evil from your own view.

chromedog wrote:
Star child theory has been retconned as complete and utter mad rantings of a splinter cult who were cleansed.

By Inquisiton. And since there is no new official material to say about it Star Child theory still stand as possible.