Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau, Humans on fringe settlements, Rogue Traders, Exodites and a few other have reasonably decent lives free of tyrannical oppression.

On the other hand...

Tau are definitely a bit imperialistic, even if they call it "The Greater Good."

Humans on fringe settlements often repeat past mistakes of humanity. Build unfettered AIs? Let Chaos in. Mess with Magic? Let Chaos in.

Rogue Traders are by definition an extension of the Imperium. They're a bit looser and more understanding,b tu they're fulfilling an Imperial mandate by their existence, really.

No real thoughts on Exodites.

Everyone in the setting is pretty wretched, and no one really has a moral high ground.

Brother Coa wrote:

chromedog wrote:
Star child theory has been retconned as complete and utter mad rantings of a splinter cult who were cleansed.

By Inquisiton. And since there is no new official material to say about it Star Child theory still stand as possible.

Perhaps you are referring to the Cult of the Star Child? This Cult was indeed cleansed by the Inquisition. In fact, when the Inquisition arrived the leader of the Cult turned into a Lord of Change.

Star Child theory = Tzeentch trickery

What about Orks? They haven't done anything wrong, just what they're biologically programmed to do.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau, Humans on fringe settlements, Rogue Traders, Exodites and a few other have reasonably decent lives free of tyrannical oppression.

I remember when tau first came out, they glowed as shiny beacons of pure intent. The 40k community did not approve, as they broke with the dark and ambiguous intents of everyone. So when 4ed tau came out, they loaded it with hints of mental/pheromone brainwashing by the ethereal caste. So it seems like a great society, but really its all just orchestrated by a upper class of manipulators. Hell, when farsight had a bit of personal initiation after his ethereal got killed, he was labeled a traitor and outcast. There are also rumors that he has lived twice as long as any other tau before him, due to not being manipulated by the ethereal.

Otherwise, everyone is either pure evil or just shades of evil and good interspersed. We arent supposed to see 'good guys' as people like to have paladins of good to gather around. In 40k, there are no visages of good so much as we may find those that are the lesser of two evils. Marines in particular i feel are a great example of that in any organization, there are some good and moral people, while also some total jack--- of people.

Ibram Gaunt is good.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath has never been proven to be his doing, only attributed to him by mortals, who are kind of biased.

Also, well, don't think it has been said if the prayers of the Imperium power him... In fact, given his adamant refusal of being worship, it might power the Chaos Gods.

You dare to oppose me?



You will burn as every alien does....

ok all of you may be right but hey Chaos says they are trying to save humanity by ascending them to a higher level for just worship think about it ...........think about it!

Commissar41.0 wrote:ok all of you may be right but hey Chaos says they are trying to save humanity by ascending them to a higher level for just worship think about it ...........think about it!

They also say they're blessing you with their gifts right before they turn you into a soupy puddle of flesh. They aren't really paragons of honesty.

true but do you know what that soup of flesh becomes? a daemon so they are being true to their word (its in the codex)

Commissar41.0 wrote:true but do you know what that soup of flesh becomes? a daemon so they are being true to their word (its in the codex)

That isn't in any codex. What's in codexes is that they are just as likely to turn their chosen champions into a quivering, mish-mash of parts as they are into some kind of useful daemon.

Please read more than half a sentence before declaring yourself an expert.

Durza wrote:What about Orks? They haven't done anything wrong, just what they're biologically programmed to do.

The Orks are a terror across the Galaxy. Entire systems have been purged of life by them, entire worlds enslaved and the population worked to death. I get they can come off as funny, but there's very much a dark side to them.

Just because they're doing what they were born to and don't realize they're being evil, doesn't mean they aren't.

Harriticus wrote:
Just because they're doing what they were born to and don't realize they're being evil, doesn't mean they aren't.

Right, Orks are definitely bad guys. However, they are honest guys and there's a lot to be said for that in the universe of 40k.

Orks aren't conquerors, enslavers, or murderers. They're fighters; that other stuff just happens.

The Ork is most certainly an enslaver. Not every human world is utterly purged of life if the Waagh is successful in taking over the planet. The Orks need people to work the mines where they get the materials to build their war-machines and weapons, after all.

I never said I was an expert but if you read the Chaos Daemons codex its in there.......I play them look under Nurgle its in that section it says that fallen not dead humans or whatever is thrown into a large Pot of boiling pestilence and the longer they stay the powers of the Warp the bigger the daemon they are (ie plauge bearer in there for a short time and Plauge Herald in the pool for a long time!)

Under Khorne its says that if they sumbit themselves to Khorne they are either changed into a blood letter or such or used as a sacrifice or they become a renegade trooper(IG)

under Tzeench and Slanesh there is no evidence of this

The closest thing to good guys in the 40k universe were the old ones. They just wanted to populate the galaxy. its not there fault that they caused the creation of the chaos gods.

DarknessEternal wrote:They also say they're blessing you with their gifts right before they turn you into a soupy puddle of flesh. They aren't really paragons of honesty.

In the mind of a Chaos God, that is a gift.

The Chaos Gods aren't evil. There servants and Daemons easily can be though.

Void__Dragon wrote:
The Chaos Gods aren't evil.

They absolutely are. Read Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and The Damned.

They're personifications of evil.

DarknessEternal wrote:They absolutely are. Read Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and The Damned.

They're personifications of evil.

They aren't even sentient, they have no real free will, only the illusion of it, they are completely defined by mortal emotion, and even if they did, their existence is so far removed from human morality to label them under it is impossible.

I may read them, though am admittedly not familiar with the titles and Lexicanum gave me nothing.

Are they codex stories, or novels?

They are the original two rulebooks that defined Chaos.

Brother Coa wrote:

chromedog wrote:
Star child theory has been retconned as complete and utter mad rantings of a splinter cult who were cleansed.

By Inquisiton. And since there is no new official material to say about it Star Child theory still stand as possible.

Theoretically possible, if you want to cling to the pre-3rd ed fluff The Story in the back of the 3rd ed rulebook (a decade or more ago) which had them being purged woukd seem to be the last word on them, fluffwise, but for the moment lets assume it's still valid, just to keep the nerdrage down

It's still a theory/prophesy, not solid fact, unless all prophecies in this setting are assumed to be 100 % accurate? If they are, I'm totally down with that

No one is... Imperium is ruled by cowards who send milllions to there death and persecute those who dont follow the doctrine laid out by them. Eldar condem entire spieces to death for one more day of life. the necrons want to kill all life. Chaos are four gods who cant even get along with each other and force their followers to kill in their name. Tau are fighting for an ideal that is basically the far future equiveant of severe socialism. The orks are fighting out of their own instinct. the future is a bad place but atleast there is never a dull day.

The Chaos gods aren't necessarily evil, they are just conglomerations of all strong emotions felt in the materium. Not all of them are bad (ie Khorne can represent honor, Tzeentch wisdom, Nurgle hope, etc).

I definitely agree with whoever said there are no good factions, only good people. That is right on the money. Although if you did ask me who the least evil faction was I would say the Exodites. They literally want nothing more than to be left alone, they are never (to my knowledge) the agressors, and they hate Chaos. Sounds good to me.

Also Tyranids aren't really evil. They're animals with no real idea of what they are doing, saying they are evil would be like saying sharks are evil, or ants as a more appropriate example because of the hive mind/hive mentality thing.

As for the Emperor being strengthened by prayers, I don't see why he would be. AFAIK the Chaos gods are empowered that way because they are actually made up of emotions, the Emperor is not. He's just some physically-dead guy's soul drifting around without a body. Nothing about him is actually tuned in to his followers, so why would their prayers have any effect on him?

Tzeentch is the god of hope actually.

Whoops, my bad. What's Nurgle's positive emotion then? I also don't know Slaanesh's.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Whoops, my bad. What's Nurgle's positive emotion then? I also don't know Slaanesh's.

Defiance born of despair, endurance basically.

Well, most people say it's love for Slaanesh, but I've never seen a source that says that. "Perfection" is an aspect of Slaanesh, the desire for it, but even that has dark connotations.

Void__Dragon wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:Whoops, my bad. What's Nurgle's positive emotion then? I also don't know Slaanesh's.

Defiance born of despair, endurance basically.

Ahh alright thanks.

Alkasyn wrote:

Sc077y wrote:"Exitus Acta Probat" - Let the outcome justify the deeds.


Space marines are the defenders of humanity, and also its subjugation. bear in mind, during the great crusade, the emperor didnt "offer to join" he didnt "make peace" he didnt "offer the olive branch". he SUBJUGATED world. thats a really nice way of saying join or die. space marines are his living will.

Incorrect.
Many worlds joined the Imperium during the Great Crusade out of percieved bonds of brotherhood between humans - think Caliban for example, or that world where the population all wore masks (Ignace Karkasy landed there if I'm not mistaken). Deathwatch supplements tell the stroy of Jericho Reach, where many worlds joined the Imperium again without any bloodshed. There are some worlds, like Aurum, where DIPLOMATIC attempts are being made to bring the world to the light of the Emperor.

Worlds are only subjugated when they refuse to join the Imperium, and the Imperium really needs that certain piece of rock.

in the fluff i have read, worlds are subjugated wherever humans are found that don't immediately stoop or bow to the god-emperor. It doesn't really matter who is on that rock, or even if that rock is valuable or not. Additionally, some worlds did indeed join the Empirical of man with open arms. If a few legions of space marines had shown up on my door step one day, im not entirely certain i would argue either.

even given that, i will spot you that some did join freely, however, many did not. The second edition Codex Ultramarines has a lot of great fluff on the subject, and the 3rd edition rule book also has great fluff on the origins of the current state of affairs. both are decent sources.

Chaos Gods are personifications of extreme human emotions, and while they may not acknowledge themselves of evil they are most definetly evil in their actions/objectives. Periods like the Age of Strife and Horus Heresy were the golden times of Chaos, but they were also the periods of the worst suffering for humanity. Chaos strives on anarchy, destruction, and misery.

Even Gods of pleasure like Slaanesh who at first glance are seemingly peaceful lead horribly destructive campaigns of terror across worlds. Just look at what the Emperor's Children did to the populous of Terra during the Heresy. Tzeentch, the "God of Hope", still wreaks mass-carnage wherever his agents go: be they Lords of Change or Changelings.

And has any good come from Chaos? Can you show me 1 servant of Chaos who actually comes off as a reasonable guy and not some insane psychopath, genocidal warlord, or mutated monstrosity? While the Imperium itself is brutal and oppressive, I can show you many honest and genuinely good Imperials. This alone confirms the evil of Chaos, imo. This is what Chaos strives for, while at least the Imperium strives for some kind of order and retaining of civilization.

Some people take this moral relativity and "shades of grey" in 40k a bit too far. I think it's safe to say the Imperium/Eldar/Tau are a level above Chaos/Tyranids/Orks/Necrons/Dark Eldar.

'Can you show me 1 servant of Chaos who actually comes off as a reasonable guy and not some insane psychopath, genocidal warlord, or mutated monstrosity'

Describes the SM rather well too, just saying

If anyone went about doing stuff for the "right" reasons... I'd say Soul Drinkers, but they didn't have a very pleasant ending.