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Okay, folks, pipe up and lend me a hand!

There's 24 mechs in the Intro Battletech Box, anyone up for helping me sort the 22 Inner Sphere ones into a semblance of some Lances?

I have them tagged with which Inner Sphere power primarily utilized them, as well as the generic ones used by everyone and their Mom.

So, questions:

If trying to demo the game, should I build forces based on the V2.0 BPVs, or should I just go for tonnage?

How do tournaments handle this?

And, if anyone knows the "Current" timeline, are Clan and Inner Sphere Mechs of equal tonnage now of equal firepower, or is it still OMGWTFBBQCLANS?

Thanks for your time!

--Brian

While I have tons of BT stuff, I've never played a tournament so my info here will be my own subjective musings. Building a Lance based solely around BV or Tonnage both have their issues imo. Tonnage doesn't accurately reflect weapon load outs and BV's tend to be skewed heavily by tech levels and weapons.

I know the new revision isn't using tech levels but it boils down to about the same thing.

Personally as long as everyone has access to the same tech, things should level out between IS and Clan. This all depends on what time frame you're setting the competition in. The new Starter set is really set before the clans. I'm sure some more knowledgeable BT players will eventually comment.

Briancj wrote:Okay, folks, pipe up and lend me a hand!
There's 24 mechs in the Intro Battletech Box, anyone up for helping me sort the 22 Inner Sphere ones into a semblance of some Lances?

There have been long threads on this before. Do a quick search.

Briancj wrote:
If trying to demo the game, should I build forces based on the V2.0 BPVs, or should I just go for tonnage?

Up to you. I prefer tonnage because points values can be abused more. This sounds incredulous but a points buy player might think that if they pay the points for a ' pulse laser boat' they feel absolved of overusing them. Battletech however is always about taking the rough with the smooth. All Battlemechs are precious even though some designs less valued than others.
Tonnage is simple and yet so broken that it ends up self policing. Often you have a choice between a 65 ton dog of a mech with ammo problems insufficient heat sinks and or poor armour coverage and a 65 ton heat neutral, energy weapon only mech with max armour. So players end up taking a bit of each. However in BV based game a poor mech is not worth taking at any price, which really betrays the prionciple of the game: use what you are given.

Briancj wrote:
How do tournaments handle this?

BV, but those games are competetive. Even some some nod to faction theme is encouraged.

Briancj wrote:
And, if anyone knows the "Current" timeline, are Clan and Inner Sphere Mechs of equal tonnage now of equal firepower, or is it still OMGWTFBBQCLANS?

The gap closes slightly. Howeever in in 3049 the IS had advanced technology, it was just poorly distributed. Back at the onset of the clan invasion many mechs were 3025 era technology, by about 3060 this remained the case for poorly rated mercs, some backwater feudal militia and minor periphery forces forces only.

By the Dark Age timeline technology is equalised fully. Though this was a background switch implemented in order to fit both clan and inner sphere forces on the same force org with the clicky tech game. i.e. everyone had access to mechs old and new, industrial mechs vehicles, battle armour and horde infantry. This included the clans as much as the great houses, subfactions and corporate armies.
By and large it doesnt make a lot of sense, but it sold clicky-tech for a while, so we are stuck with it.

Note that in the Dark Age only clans produce clan tech, but it is for sale to whover can pay. Likewise clans buy cleaper and more plentiful chassis and weapons from spheroid factories to bulk out their toumans.

Orlanth wrote:Howeever in in 3049 the IS had advanced technology, it was just poorly distributed. Back at the onset of the clan invasion many mechs were 3025 era technology,

Especially those second line units pulling periphery duty, where the clans initially hit...

Orlanth wrote:

Note that in the Dark Age only clans produce clan tech, but it is for sale to whover can pay. Likewise clans buy cleaper and more plentiful chassis and weapons from spheroid factories to bulk out their toumans.

Not necessarily true. House Davion in the XTRO states that a unit is using the first inner sphere produced clan quality weapons. Although, they are not able to mass produce them yet.


On topic, I try to balance by tonnage, maximum number of units allowed, and BV. It seems to work a bit better than either method alone.

megatrons2nd wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Note that in the Dark Age only clans produce clan tech, but it is for sale to whover can pay. Likewise clans buy cleaper and more plentiful chassis and weapons from spheroid factories to bulk out their toumans.

Not necessarily true. House Davion in the XTRO states that a unit is using the first inner sphere produced clan quality weapons. Although, they are not able to mass produce them yet.

Unsurprising the clans have no intellectual superiority, just better manufacturing techniques and infrastructure and a scientist cadre which is less restricted.

The NAIS could replicate clan technology as far back as 3052/3, but couldn't manufacture it beyond hand made prototypes. House Davion clan tech is just a trickle down of that and can ber discounted. Due to captured tech, hand mades etc etc any faction with a hand in the game can have a token amount of anything, excepting only warship technology, and then only for some.

An alternative is making mixed lances. Take one mech from each catagory: Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault, look to balance tonnage. In most cases, it gives a idea of what each class does best. If doing demos, try to give a slight advantage to the person you are teaching.

Thank you all, very much, for your input. I tend to make sure any game balance is skewed toward the new player. There's nothing that'll kill interest in a game system more than being curb-stomped in a demo. And that benefits no-one.

--Brian

For a demo a good idea is give the newbie a medium 'Mech and the "punching bag" a light 'Mech, or a significantly inferior medium.

Keep demos for new guys simple with 3025 tech, and you can balance by tonnage pretty easily. Just don't force some poor bastard to have 125 tons in the Dragon and the JagerMech while another guy gets the Awesome and Vindicator. Similar tonnage, but that is not going to be a fun day for one side....

Interesting. Is there anywhere on these wild, wild interwebs that discuss and provide balanced point costs for 'mechs?

Last time I played in a BT tourney, they were restricted by time period AND Tonnage.

Lances had to be of no more than X00 tons and be from Y time period (tech readouts). This established the level playing field (Not uncommon to have 350 ton lance limits from say 3025 or 3050) or "NO clan tech").

Rather similar to comp mechanisms used in other tourneys to this day.

I'd imagine any new ones would follow a similar theme.

Briancj wrote:Interesting. Is there anywhere on these wild, wild interwebs that discuss and provide balanced point costs for 'mechs?

Yes

http://www.classicbattletech.com/ The official website.

http://www.masterunitlist.info/ The ongoing master unit list, which includes battle value, though it is not complete yet it is a work in progress and is updated as often as they can.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/ The official forums off of the official website.


And anywhere that Mattlov sends you.

megatrons2nd wrote:

Briancj wrote:Interesting. Is there anywhere on these wild, wild interwebs that discuss and provide balanced point costs for 'mechs?

Yes

http://www.classicbattletech.com/ The official website.

http://www.masterunitlist.info/ The ongoing master unit list, which includes battle value, though it is not complete yet it is a work in progress and is updated as often as they can.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/ The official forums off of the official website.


And anywhere that Mattlov sends you.

I seem to be gaining some kind of reputation.

The other good place to go is http://www.catalystdemos.com and sign up as a player. You can find Demo Agents (like me) nearby, and there is a player finder as well. IT can greatly expand your new Battleteching buddies. All it takes is a valid email and the imagination to come up with a call sign.

If you want a free 'Mech creation program, try out Solaris Skunk Werks (http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com) and download it. It does require the most up to date version of Java to run, but it is free, and the most up to date 'Mech software out there. It also has BV calculators and roster creation ability to help balance forces. And it's free, if I hadn't mentioned that.

Other than that, I think megatrons2nd handled it pretty well.

Bookmarked! Also, already signed up. I'm seeing that not much has changed, in all honesty, some streamlining, etc.

So, I open up the next Q for you helpful folks:

We can talk about two 'mechs having the same tonnage and/or the same BPV...but one being quite inferior to the other. I knew this was the case for tonnage, but is it true for BPV2?

--B.

Briancj wrote:
We can talk about two 'mechs having the same tonnage and/or the same BPV...but one being quite inferior to the other. I knew this was the case for tonnage, but is it true for BPV2?
--B.

Very likely, though I have no examples on the top iof my head.

BV2 fixes some problems, or more accurately makes them less broken. It makes armour more 'valuable' than it was depicted as being. However it is still a formulaic system, they havent even got weapons costs right yet, and that ought to be the main issue. Weapons points are a factor of range times damage, with some modifiers, such as if the weapon does 12 points of damage to a single location or more (headcaps). FASA and now Catalyst have failed to see that such points lists need to be adjusted manually not formulaically.
Even if we did get points costs for every component handled manually and carefully thought through we would still have problems. New and retro tech would need to be added into the system with the same level of care, and ultimately there would have to be a points cost for 'mapping' out the mech, and there currently is not.

This is the main way two identical mechs can be imbalanced. You can give them the same components right down to the last ammo bin armour ton weapon and heat sink. The final differencing factor is the internal component list. Got leg heat sinks, you have an advantage right there, armour distribution matters as much as tonnage if you have ammo. Some excellent mechs have massive armour bins and poor side torso armour, or are configured as bruisers but have poor rear torso armour. Put your ammo in the centre torso and you cannot save yourself if it blows, but at least there is a small chance it will. Side torsos are nortmally empty of everything but the ammo, so every critical hit there is a death sentence. Put the ammo on the arms and uyou get good survivability, lots of components to hide the ammo bins among, the weapon too and if it does blow there is a chance the blow tghrough will only take the aerm and ruin the side torso, a disaster, but one you can retreat from.
So far the actual component allocation is freeform and not point priced at all. I can see why, but I would like Catalyst to take a cursory look at each mech after totting up all BV and adding or taking away some points on account of the layout, the only troublwe with that is that it doesn't touch custom designs.

The place where you see very similar BV units being drastically different in capabilities is usually between Clan and Inner Sphere tech. Two Clan 'Mechs with 2400 BV will be pretty similar in capability one might jump, but the other one has more firepower.

The biggest disparity I've seen is an Atlas (AS7-D i believe), a Sagitaire(sp), and one of the Hellion(D I think) variants. They are within about 200 points of each other. The Atlas is an Inner Sphere introductory assault mech and the biggest you can get. The Sagitaire is an Inner Sphere standard rules assault mech about 80 tons Targeting computer and pulse weapons. The Hellion is a light Clan mech it is 25 -30 tons but I don't play Clans so I don't know for sure.

Although playing with around them the Atlas was nuked by the Hellion about 60% of the time. The Hellion almost always lost to the Sagitaire and it's only wins were lucky hits. The Sagitaire also won most games against the Atlas.

Just to jump in here real quick:

Can anyone recommend the Starterbook: Sword and Dragon - as well as the mech packs - before picking up the Total Warfare book?

As to the OP, I'm in the same situation as you. Here's what I'll be doing with the mechs that came in the boxset: I'll take each mech and give it a dark green main color, sort of a mercenary outfit look. Then, each mech will be getting different colored markings - red, blue, yellow, white, red, grey, etc. - for the different roles they play, laid out in the tactics booklet - brawlers, missile boats, snipers, etc.

Now, my metal mechs on the other hand... I'll probably pick a House to go with for them. Probably Davion.

infinite_array wrote:Just to jump in here real quick:

Can anyone recommend the Starterbook: Sword and Dragon - as well as the mech packs - before picking up the Total Warfare book?

As to the OP, I'm in the same situation as you. Here's what I'll be doing with the mechs that came in the boxset: I'll take each mech and give it a dark green main color, sort of a mercenary outfit look. Then, each mech will be getting different colored markings - red, blue, yellow, white, red, grey, etc. - for the different roles they play, laid out in the tactics booklet - brawlers, missile boats, snipers, etc.

Now, my metal mechs on the other hand... I'll probably pick a House to go with for them. Probably Davion.

No, you'll need Total Warfare before you use Sword and Dragon. The Starterbook isn't for Introductory rules, but uses standard TW rules.

Mattlov wrote:No, you'll need Total Warfare before you use Sword and Dragon.

now, if you need someone to recommend taht you get the starter book after you pick up TW, consider it recommended!