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Hi Dakka!

Disclaimer before you read further, this post is very contentious, and if you are easily offended, you probably shouldn't read it.

Ok, I've stated in previous posts that I work a lot of hours, and that I don't have much free time. What little free time I have, I usually spend either gaming or painting. This would normally be fine, as it's all I can manage. However, in my FLGS there seems to be an increasing number of people who are either:

A) Students

or

B) Unemployed

I'm not going to tar everyone here with the same brush, as not all of the guys in our shop who fall into the above two categories apply to the comments i'll write below.

As I find myself having limited hobby time, my armies aren't always painted (and I have in fact paid for some of my painting to be done, some by friends, and some by painters here on dakka).This leads to several comments from people who fall into the above categories along the lines of "your army looks crap, why havent you painted it?", or "i'm sick of seeing grey plastic, would you at least spray it?". This is extremely frustrating, as these people have bags of time to spend on doing these things. Now i've been there myself, I went through uni as well and had the "free time thing", but i'd never think to criticise someone who was too busy to do these things. I find myself restraining myself from saying something like "well if you actually got off your backside and got a job, your army might be more grey as well". But that's not fair, as I don't know that persons circumstances. This leaves me feeling undermined from someone who I don't feel has reason to act this way.

The other side of it is during gaming. I like to think i'm pretty well versed in the rules, but I admit that the occasional thing comes up that catches me by surprise. Again, I find that some of these people are the first to jump in with comments like "how could you not know that?" or "I saw that coming a mile away". These people often spend dawn till dusk in the FLGS, and seem to be gaming 24/7. Its frustrating, as I can't even come close to clocking that many hours. I'm not a massively competitive player, but I can usually give anyone a close game. It's frustrating that things like lack of practice compared to these guys can lead to ridicule.

After that rant I guess my question is, how can I deal with these people, without telling them to "go away and get a job", and not sound like a complete a-hole?

I think you should paint your armies. you have well over 10k points according to your sig. So you've been hobbying for how long? and you don't have 1 painted army?

you can always find a 10/20mins to sit down and post this. why could you have not sprayed some models?

yes other people have their own time schedules with more or less free time. What they say and do arent important.

There are quick easy methods now to paint an army up very quickly and to a decent standard. I'm surprised the store lets you use unpainted models too.

Underachiever wrote:I think you should paint your armies. you have well over 10k points according to your sig. So you've been hobbying for how long? and you don't have 1 painted army?

My Black templars are painted, and so are my necrons, but the rest is mostly unpainted. My templars were mostly assembled when I got into the game some 12 years ago. I've only recently picked up the game again within the last year, and thats because I had the money to do so again as I was working full time.

Underachiever wrote:you can always find a 10/20mins to sit down and post this. why could you have not sprayed some models?

I am in the office today and it's farily quiet. I doubt my boss would appreciate me bringing in a paintbrush.

Underachiever wrote:yes other people have their own time schedules with more or less free time. What they say and do arent important.

There are quick easy methods now to paint an army up very quickly and to a decent standard. I'm surprised the store lets you use unpainted models too.

I've never been a speedy painter, it can take me hours to do one model to a standard that i'm happy with. That's not my fault that i'm not very good at it.

Juggling a full time job, significant others, healthy exercise, running a household and your other hobbies is tough – but I believe everyone can find fifteen minutes a day to paint.

I can understand your frustration, but it sounds more like you're getting frustrated with the attitude/rudeness of the people at your local store. Perhaps you could just invite a friend to play against at home, or somewhere away from them?

Ultimately, if you're not enjoying your hobby, then I'd recommend taking a little break. If and when the enthusiasm builds back up, dive in again.

I fully understand your problem. I myself am a student and don't have the time to paint my stuff. I have to study, maintain a social life and have other hobbies and interests. Painting most schemes takes considerable time and as I have very exacting standards that I impose upon myself, it takes even longer.

For instance I don't spray prime, I use gesso. I get better results but it takes longer. I don't use foundation paints much because I don't like the colours and I heavily dilute paint because I like to blend in layers. Takes longer, looks better.

Point being that this is your hobby, it doesn't matter one bit if you game with unpainted minis - how could it? I'd let people use bases with "wraithlord" written on them as long as they were the right size. What do I care?

Those people in your flgs sound like rubbish people. I'd ask them why they care and they won't be able to answer, they'll just say something like "courtesy, we bothered to spend the time" to which I would say "good for you, I do what I want with my time, I don't paint to please anonomous people"

ok cool, fair enough. Have you looked into getting an air brush ? they are really good and cut the time down a lot. some simple layering and you have a really good blend. also not very reliant on skill. Simple rules to follow and there is plenty of vids up about it.

Since cash is high and time is low i think this plus a wash and picking out some highlights, you doing sqauds in batches too this way so you'll really slash it.

I honestly do think you should try it. Not because of people like in your store, because you spent a good sack of cash on it and giving it some paint only makes your stuff more yours.

I know what it's like I work full time too, have a lovely girl friend, play rugby and see mates. I normally game one evening a week and find painting does not always go as quickly or happen as frequent as I'd like!

What I find helps are two things, deadlines e.g tournaments and having a blog helps motivate me,

As for other people comments, well I'm lucky I've enough painted I don't need to field unpainted mini's even if that leads to a 6 month time lag from starting a new army till game one! But hey progress is progress, if every month a new unit/character/vehicle is done that's the achievement. When people say 'why's this tac squad unpainted' say 'sorry been too busy on this predator' etc

Everyone has time to paint. You can always sacrifice a game and belly up to the paint table at the FLGS and paint for 2 hours. Claiming you have a job and your time is too important or you are too busy to paint is condescending.

If you don't want to paint, then own your decisions like an adult. Don't try to insult others by insulting them by saying "you must not have a social life or job you lazy bum..." no wonder you have backlash.

There was a time, back in the 2nd ed days, when I really didn't have the time spare to play games or even model.

That's because I was out clubbing from Friday night until I got home on Sunday afternoons, after working mon-fri with an 8 hour work day and 90 minute commute each way.

Then I learned how to find or make the time and even still managed to fit in some clubbing. Then I got a girlfriend who lived in a different city (2 1/2 hours north of where I lived) who I'd see on weekends. One weekend a month was still reserved for gaming (and she agreed to it).

Nowadays, I only paint when the weather allows (I prefer to paint with natural light, and the weather is crap), and try to game on one day a week. It's not necessarily the same day each week, and some weeks I don't manage to at all. I managed to get my 12,000pt SM and Eldar armies painted, my 4500pt GK army painted and my 2500pt IG army assembled (painting will have to wait until at least spring - when the remainder can be undercoated in bulk).

Why not just play with your painted armies? Then they'd have nothing to complain about, and you could work on painting your other armies when you get the time. Perhaps you could bring your stuff in to work, paint during your lunchbreak? Not knowing the circumstances of your workplace, it's hard to know how viable that is.

As for the comments on rules and gameplay: tell them to get stuffed. Childish, nerdy, hur-hur-me-am-the-smarterest comments like that should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Genuine surprise that you might not know something is one thing, and just telling them you don't get to play that often should silence that, but making snide little passive agressive remarks like the ones you mentioned, that's just pathetic.

I know exactly what you mean about gaming, I was playing this guy and it wasn't a competitive game or a tournament game but every chance he got he would bend the rules to make them in his favor. One time he said I didn't roll for Fortitude in the beginning of turn, I wasn't even in the room in the beginning!!!! He was also getting cover saves on EVERYTHING. I'm not that kind of guy that is going to argue, I was just there to game and didn't want to start a problem. Then when I started winning he got all pissy. I hate that, its a game. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN! I would expect that in a tournament but not in a friendly game that doesn't mean anything. I also understand what you mean about not having the time to paint, I'm a high school student. During the school year I really don't have that much time to paint, maybe 30-35 minutes a day? During the summer though I take advantage of it as much as possible. I will paint 6-7 hours a day because I know I can't do that during the school year. It really all comes down to your obligations, and your priorities. I would never put painting and gaming in front of my social or my family life.

I don't mind playing against unpainted armies. They still play the same at the end of the day, but only look better. If someone hasn't painted stuff for ages I'll ask in general but if stuff is grey I do think it's a bit weird can not take 5 minutes just to spray undercoat on them, not that it makes any difference really.

You ask how to tell your detractors off without being an a-hole, and I'm going to go ahead and recommend that you just tell them off. Anyone who tells you that "your army looks like crap" or they are "sick of looking at it" has already crossed the line of good taste, and you are morally free to retaliate.

You already have enough people in this thread exhorting you to get the army painted, so I don't need to add to that. But don't take no guff from these reprobates, baby brother. Tell them you'll prime your army while they go take a bath. Tell them it's awful hard to get time to paint and pork their mom in the same day.

Either laugh and nod and suck it up, or escalate the rudeness and slap them down hard and fast.

Jimsolo wrote:You ask how to tell your detractors off without being an a-hole, and I'm going to go ahead and recommend that you just tell them off. Anyone who tells you that "your army looks like crap" or they are "sick of looking at it" has already crossed the line of good taste, and you are morally free to retaliate.

You already have enough people in this thread exhorting you to get the army painted, so I don't need to add to that. But don't take no guff from these reprobates, baby brother. Tell them you'll prime your army while they go take a bath. Tell them it's awful hard to get time to paint and pork their mom in the same day.

Either laugh and nod and suck it up, or escalate the rudeness and slap them down hard and fast.

That's almost exactly what I was thinking.

First, if people are being that down right rude to you, then they are just plain jerks.

Second, don't assume how much free time other's have. Being a student doesn't mean you get 8 hours a day of play time. Unless you KNOW what they do all day, don't judge others.

personally I dont want to play an unpainted army (but due to work and time constraints I may end up doing so...)

I also dont have any problem playing against unpainted armies because I DO understand the constraints of time...


I am also a student.

First, I do sympathize with the OP. I have a family, work FT, try to squish time into physical exercise, along with going your regular house work / fixing things that break in the house. Its a lot. I can understand getting frustrated at people who appear to be able to game 27/7. However, that's really their choice. I used to formerly spend a lot of time at LFGS, but I worked night shift. Typically I headed to work around 9pm, worked until 3am. People "assumed" I was unemployed. Quite the opposite. I worked counter scheduled. It was fun for a while. Maybe try talking to those players ahead the game. Explain you try to do what you can, and learn while playing.

Second, I do not ever accept "I do not have time to paint." When I paint, I paint 15 minutes a day. I have many posts of how to get an army GT ready in 3 months by simply painting 15 mins a day. Again, not everyone needs or wants to do that, and that's fine. But giving the "i don't have time excuse" I usually respond with are you focused. If you have lots of armies, pick 1 list to work on over the next 3 months. Start with the HQ, build / prime / paint him working 15 mins a day. Likely that model will be done in less then 1 week. Continue. Focus on 3-4 models at a time. 15 minutes a day x 1 week is, 105 minutes of painting IE 1 hour 45 minutes. You can get a lot done in that time. Span that a month, that's 420 minutes, IE 7 hours. How much can you paint in 7 hours?

Melchiour wrote:
Second, don't assume how much free time other's have. Being a student doesn't mean you get 8 hours a day of play time. Unless you KNOW what they do all day, don't judge others.

See that's why i haven't actually said anything to anyone yet. I didn't feel it was my place (I thought i made that clear in my OP, apologies if I didn't). I understand the students are still busy, which is why I find it confusing that they see fit to comment on the greyness of some of my armies.

Verbal abuse while gaming.
You're well within your rights to tell them to get stuffed, even if you come across as a bit jerkish. Folks who are jerks over rules or gloat over your mistakes need a nice verbal slapdown.

On the painting side however...
...you've got over 5,000 points of unpainted figs! For heavens sake man, get a bit disciplined find some time to do some painting.

I personally don't think that folks should post armies in their sig that aren't finished. It takes what should be a measure of work and turns it into a measure of how much a person has bought, but that's a whole other coversation...

Also, they may be jerks, but I'd love to have a FLGS where the local standard is to play with painted army. The amount of grey at my FLGS sickens me. If you have a FLGS where the standard is for painted armies, you're actually quite lucky.

As someone who really loves playing against painted armies, I can sorta see where they're coming from. I had a gaming group in highschool and even during the summer many of my opponents didn't paint anything. It's frustrating to see when you know they've got nothing going on, but I never busted their balls for it aside from the occasional poking for fun. It sounds like these guys are going way beyond that. Tell them to cool it with the trashtalk, and that you don't appreciate it.

You can tell them off without saying "go away and get a job." Just be polite and hopefully they'll wisen up.

I'm kind of lucky with hobby time, due to different schedules I mostly just get to see my girlfriend on saturdays, every other night I'm free to work on models and other stuff. But my problem is I paint real slow. Like for example, a unit of 20 Saurus warriors for my lizardmen that I did a little while ago took me a whole month, between filing off all the flash, assembling, priming, painting, washing, basing, varnishing and the extra time it took to wait for things like glue to dry.. it took me 3 months off and on to finish a unit of 50 goblins. So most of my armies are half done at best.

I wouldn't let what other people say about it bother you though.. they have time, you don't. One day they'll have a busy life too and they'll know what it's like. They're just being jerks because they can.

Necros wrote: One day they'll have a life too and they'll know what it's like. They're just being jerks because they can.

And making judgments about people who paint not having lives is equally as jerky. Busy people with 'a life' seem to find time to paint, so it can't be that people with a job/girlfriend/wife/family/kids/other hobbies/illnesses can't find time to paint because they are so busy because some people seem to make it work.

It's the persons decision to paint or not. I know people that only play the game to play, they could care less about how their army looks. Then theres people like me, I got into it because I like the painting aspect of it, and the gaming is like icing on a cake. I personally dont care if someone's army is painted because they will usually have a reasonable reason why, and you can't make people do something they dont want too.

Sorry meant to say "have a busy life" not "have a life".. edited :p

see, my issue is that since i pay for pro painters to do some of my models i walk into the store with a fully painted army and when i get my stuff out some people at my flgs go "did you paint these?" (pointing at some of the pro's stuff) and i reply "no" and then they have a go at me for not painting my own models and not being bothered to do them myself, in find it a bit unfair that people will have a go at me for paying for quality

madman12367 wrote:see, my issue is that since i pay for pro painters to do some of my models i walk into the store with a fully painted army and when i get my stuff out some people at my flgs go "did you paint these?" (pointing at some of the pro's stuff) and i reply "no" and then they have a go at me for not painting my own models and not being bothered to do them myself, in find it a bit unfair that people will have a go at me for paying for quality

It is unfair, and they're idiots. Not everyone gets into the hobby for the painting, and I know I'd prefer to fight a pro-painted army rather than an unpainted army, given the choice. You might as well have a go at them for not playing the same army as you, or not using the same list. Heaven forbid people should enjoy different aspects of the hobby from each other!

Eilif wrote:
Also, they may be jerks, but I'd love to have a FLGS where the local standard is to play with painted army. The amount of grey at my FLGS sickens me. If you have a FLGS where the standard is for painted armies, you're actually quite lucky.

Maybe if there had been much more grey, the place would still be open
come October

I keed, I keed.

I'm one of the fully painted players there, Eilif. It just so happens that I
hang out with people who are unwilling or unable to paint. If they don't
enjoy that part of things, I'm not going to berate them for that. It's different
for me. I can't imagine painting so many figures if I didn't enjoy it.

At risk of pissing a bunch of people off... THIS IS JUST A HOBBY! GET OVER IT!

The OP has no reason to feel ashamed. He has a job and a life outside wargaming. That's more than a lot of people can claim right now (he's ahead of approximately 30 million Americans in the 'has a job' department alone). Sure, that there are a lot of people out of work is not the fault of the people actually out of work (I blame corporate greed for that), but to bash someone who has a full time job for not having the time to paint little plastic soldiers is to loose track of the whole point of the game: TO HAVE FUN!

I understand that it looks better, that it is more fun, to pit your fully-painted army against someone else's fully-painted army. BUT, it is still fun to play, even if the hordes across the table are still grey. And bashing him for having a job and a life just makes you sound like TFG, who is no fun to play at all.

malfred wrote:

Eilif wrote:
Also, they may be jerks, but I'd love to have a FLGS where the local standard is to play with painted army. The amount of grey at my FLGS sickens me. If you have a FLGS where the standard is for painted armies, you're actually quite lucky.

Maybe if there had been much more grey, the place would still be open come October

I keed, I keed.

I'm one of the fully painted players there, Eilif. It just so happens that I hang out with people who are unwilling or unable to paint. If they don't enjoy that part of things, I'm not going to berate them for that. It's different for me. I can't imagine painting so many figures if I didn't enjoy it.

Are you unusually preceptive, or are you referring to Black Sun Games in Chicago which is unfortunately closing in September? I used to game at BSUN until I started a group playing indie miniatures games at Chicagoland Games. Black Sun games seemed to have alot of painted armies, whereas Chicagoland Games has grey and silver hordes. Unfortunately Chicagoland was closer to one of our main players and has much better access to public transit.

As to your friends, that's fine if you're cool with that gaming evironment. Despite my only-tabletop-quality paintjobs and my preference for conversion to painting, I'm still a "spectacle of painted armies" kind of guy. A table of grey and silver has absoutely no appeal to me. Hence my club only fields painted minis and when folks come to play without painted minis, we lend them painted figs.

Of course the comparison isn't entirely far. We play a few different of skirmish games of 12-35 figs a side, so while over a year one of us may paint as many figs as someone working on a WFB army, we don't have to force ourselves to paint hordes of nearly-identical miniatures.

Vulcan wrote:At risk of pissing a bunch of people off... THIS IS JUST A HOBBY! GET OVER IT!

The OP has no reason to feel ashamed. He has a job and a life outside wargaming. That's more than a lot of people can claim right now (he's ahead of approximately 30 million Americans in the 'has a job' department alone). Sure, that there are a lot of people out of work is not the fault of the people actually out of work (I blame corporate greed for that), but to bash someone who has a full time job for not having the time to paint little plastic soldiers is to loose track of the whole point of the game: TO HAVE FUN!

I understand that it looks better, that it is more fun, to pit your fully-painted army against someone else's fully-painted army. BUT, it is still fun to play, even if the hordes across the table are still grey. And bashing him for having a job and a life just makes you sound like TFG, who is no fun to play at all.

You sir are the smartest man in this thread. Everyone needs to understand that they little toy soldiers and it's just a hobby.