How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?

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**nomotog**

Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)

I can see three ways the tau could fight a big titan.

1. Run away. Ok this is probably cheating, but they can just pull out and not actually fight it. They could wait till it gets transported then kill it in space, or buy pass it all together.

2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

This all assumes that railguns don't work, or that the tau didn't build the railgun mark 2 by then.

**nomotog**

Something else I thought of.

4. landmine. All the titans i have seen are two leg. They are big easy to see and track (I assume slow, but you never know.) You could figure out where it is going and plant a huge bomb in it's path. Better yet, lure it into a area with a lot of caves and then drop the ground around it.

**nomotog**

Kanluwen wrote:
AndrewC wrote:
nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast.

Welcome to the world of Tau threads.

Because clearly the Tau players don't do anything to continue these ridiculous levels of one upsmanship, right?

If you find Brother Coa to be trolling--then ignore him and report his post. The Background Forum would be much better if he's not responded to.

2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

They don't do scorched earth either. Wait and come back later when it's not there.

Debatable. We haven't seen them do scorched earth yet, but their behavior towards Orks shows that they have no problems adopting it if necessary.

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.

And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?

I wasn't really talking about brother coa with that comment. More about how the first, page had very little about titans or how to kill titans.

I shouldn't have used the word nuke. I was actually thinking of ice fire misses (they only damages vehicles) or pin point rail cannon strikes.

The tau can take some IG. I was actually thinking it would be a hard thing to board it. That's why I said battlesuits. Maybe it's something shadowsun can do?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AndrewC wrote:
I dont know. TBH I think they were placed there as the signature 'weapon' of the Pathfinders is the Markerlight, which is also heavy. The designers were probably hamstrung with the no support weapons in troop decision. Also the previous 'gets hot' rule which made the RR so dangerous to use was removed in Tau Empire, so we could, though unlikely, see them in troops if GW retcons the support weapons.

It might be the tabletop purpose, but that's not the fluff purpose.

Do you know it's been so long since I read the original WD that included the RR I can't remember what the fluff purpose was.

Cheers

Andrew

I actually have that issue. I'll look up the reason when I get the chance. I reamer thought that they could fry the brains of the people using them and is why they are only issued to pathfinders.

**nomotog**

When have the tau killed several titans? I can only think of the one.

**nomotog**

There was a reaver? That's the first I heard of that too.

**nomotog**

Kanluwen wrote:The Damocles Gulf Crusade composition is asininely screwed up.

There was a listing that was floating around at one point that had something like 14 Land Speeders for each Battle-Brother that was fielded in the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Another had the force composition having almost 3x the number of Astartes on the field as Guardsmen.

I have heard so many different army lists it's not even funny. The only thing that remains is that it's a small force with different definitions of small.

chaos0xomega wrote:If you read the Taros Campaign, they make it pretty clear that the Titan was destroyed, if not, then at the very least it wasn't recovered by the Ad Mech, as its written in several places that the Titan was 'lost'.

The Ad Mech didn't recover it, but there is still the question did the tau recover it. Two rail rounds wouldn't reduce it to slag, but the IoM might have.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.

Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.

Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.

Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.

AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.

I dunno, maybe its because that's how good Space Marines are? They aren't a merry band of paper armoured incompetent idiots, they're the most elite fighting force the Imperium can field in any numbers. There's a reason most marines survive for hundreds of years, because they can't be mowed down by the Tau like your average guardsmen.

Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

**nomotog**

iproxtaco wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.

It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.

Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.

**nomotog**

Deadshot wrote:
nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)

Here is a link of detailed descriptions of all titans,including the Xenos versions.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan

That was very helpful thank you. It actually makes me think that the tau might not have such a hard time with the bigger titans. (the titans by them selves) A raver is only twice as well armored as a warhound. So that's like 2 or 3 passes. The big kicker is that it dosen't apare to have anything like mini turrets or anything. Just the big stuff which I imagine is hard to aim at an air craft. It's build to kill other titans I suspect it might have a hard time fighting something smaller.

Oh and iproxtaco I PMed my response to you. I didn't want to help drag this thread off topic any more then I already have.

**nomotog**

Deadshot wrote:You have to take into consideration a titan's loadout.

The only titan references I can give you are the weapons for the Emperor Titan

It has 6 carapace mounted weapons
Laser Blaster
Plasma Destructor
Inferno Gun
Vulcan Mega Bolter
Volcano Cannon
Melta Cannon(not the crappy Banewolf one)

Range-120
Str-10
AP-1
Type-Ordinance 1,large blast,melta*

*,Against vehicles under the central hole,this has Str 10+3D6 Armour pen.Against vehicles under the template but not the hole,it has Str 10+2D6 armour pen.

Apocalypse Missile Launcher
Vortex Missile

All of these have a Minimum range of 36'',except the Vortex,which has a Minimum range of 48''

It also has 2 arm mounted weapons,

Plasma Annihilator(rapid/full)
Range-96''/120''
Str-8/10
Ap2
Type ordinance 6,7'' blast,/Ordinance 3,7'' blast

Hellstorm cannon
Range-96''
Str-9
AP3
Type-Ordinance 8,7'' Blast

Doomsday Missile Launcher
Range-36-540''
Str 8
AP 3
Type-Apocalypse barrage (10)

Vengeance cannon
Range-360''
Str-D
AP 2
Type-Heavy 1,7'' blast,Destroyer

What Tau can take this in a fight.Heck,a novel I read,it took a whole bunch of Titans firing on a point for 5 full minutes to collapse its voids.It took down many titans with it.

Who can take this on?

Drop a rock on it? When you start getting at the really big stuff. (quick question, is there anything bigger then that?) The tau just can't fight them with what they have now. It's possible that they could kill one some time maybe somewhere down the rode. The tau, how they are now, don't stand a chance in a straight up fight. Killing one would be the story of a book and would involve maybe a lifetime of planing.

**nomotog**

Soladrin wrote:Quick question.

I never actually saw the specific (fluff) specs for titans.
But I was wondering... would these giant gods of war not have anti batteries of their own? It's kind of silly to just put 2 big guns on it and call it a day.

I'd reckon warlords and Imperators would be covered in missile pods/lascannon/Auto cannon AA turrets.

That said, an attack run from a full AX10 squadron or two should reduce most things to swiss cheese.

They are offended by small weapons? Just a guess, but I understand titans can be picky.

A Ax10 squad is only two. If I have my BFG right.

**nomotog**

Brother Coa wrote:The point is: Tau can deal with Titans - but only with much resources put into it.

And taking down 1 Warhound is nothing, Titan Legion is 10x better protected then them. If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( witch much less recources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.

I don't know that it's a lot of resources. The details of the kill keep shifting (thanks for that GW), but last I checked they didn't even lose the trigershark.

Unless you think that rail rounds are solid gold works of art or something.

**nomotog**

If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.

**nomotog**

im2randomghgh wrote:
nomotog wrote:
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.

Are you referring to 3rd ed? I just pull out my 4th ed Tau dex and there's nothing of the sort.

4 ed, 2008 printing, page 14, bottom left, in the little box. It's a quote from Major Kane, Mordant 607 Heavy armored regiment. It might be a sticking point that it dosen't call the weapon a rail gun, but is says it was on a light walker and all the other light walker weapons are energy weapons or explosives that would have split open the hull. (outside of kroot, the rail gun is the only solid shot weapon the tau have.)

**nomotog**

What dose it matter if a rail gun is a mass driver or not? They could call it the woodo do shooty thing. That wouldn't change how it acts and we know how it acts.

**nomotog**

There have a few ideas on dealing the bigger things. Before this thread dies the slow death. lets recap.

1. They don't fight it. Run away and deal with it when it's not on. Like in transport.

2. Ship strikes. Icefire misses or rail gun battery from space born weapons.

3. Boarding and infiltration. Everything is weaker on the inside, but the large titans are still guarded. It would be hard.

4. Something new. The tau are always improving there tech so they could build something new and big to kill titans. Good luck guessing what it will be.

**nomotog**

Brother Coa wrote:This is going nowhere guys...

Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.

We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...

But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.

You haven't been playing attention.

**nomotog**

Brother Coa wrote:I noticed that you have been arguing about everything...

From our universe laws to 40k laws...

From our technology to 40k technology...

From codex to novels, from "this is crap" and "this is great"...

From one viewpoint to another viewpoint...

From facts and claims to evidence and sources...

From logic to common sense...

From this one Titan thread you discussed almost everything there is to know about Tau and Imperium.

But in the end it all comes down to this: Tau don't have anything to counter the larger Imperial Titans - for now. This one sentence save 9 pages of moral, technological, logical and fan arguments.

Threads do tend to bounce around, but there was still a fair amount of talk of titans and the many ways the the tau can deal with them. Everything from the tiger shark. (It should still be useful on smaller battle titans.) To orbital strikes with icefire. To just running away.

**nomotog**

Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.

The latest version of BFG changes that. It says they have new units trained in boarding.

**nomotog**

Warhounds have amazing agility? How agile are we talking here?

**nomotog**

Grey Templar wrote:
nomotog wrote:Warhounds have amazing agility? How agile are we talking here?

On the table top, Warhounds can fire one weapon and run 1d6, or fire none and run 2D6.

Lexicanum puts top road speed at 58 Kilometers per hour, off road speed is 42 kph

full technical specs here http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhound

Oh they just run fast (ish). I was thinking you meant they could do back flips or tap dance.

**nomotog**

Hashbeth wrote:Very well could. At what speed is it going? What is the atmosphere of the tank interior? What is the shape of its interior metalwork? all those have increasing factors. And a truly effective rail projectile for anti-tank would be fired in a ballistic trajectory (to maximize kinetic energy), as the velocity itself would not 'suck the air' out of the tank.

If it passed through in such a way that it didn't harm the crew, then it wouldn't have done any damage. (we are assumeing it his the crew section. If it misses the crew section, then ya i don't think it will hurt what it misses.)

**nomotog**

Tau can launch icefire missiles fairly accurately. I believe they work like battlesuits. (Actually well are at it, do battlesuits deepstrike form orbit?)

**nomotog**

Tau ships would have a better chance to hit a moveing target on a planet because unlike logic would dictate, they put there rail guns in turret battery. rather then fixed main guns. So they can rotate all around with out turning the ship and they fire a lot of shots.

**nomotog**

Retribution wrote:I need to hear the story behind this great tau-khorne-berserker

No one is saying it's a good story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNyr_nc6R8

**nomotog**

It's not like fluff and game is separated by a wall of razor sharp tigers. Fluff informs the game and the game also informs the fluff.

If we can see a fluffy comparison of the specs, that would be nice though.