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I've recently come up against Orks for the first time (got walloped), and may come up against Nids soon as well. I do not have a mech army, mine is more MC based. Only skimmers I have are 2 Falcons, a WS & a Prism. Would love advice from you guys as to what to field (and how to field them) in order to deal with the hordes. Last game (750 against Orks) had no skimmers, and very little shooting other than 3 Walkers armed with double SL's. My concern with the Walkers is that they're so bloody fragile - I went second, and by the time I went two of the 3 Walkers had already been stunned (thank God for stones). All 3 blew up in top of round 2. Are my skimmers the best option? If so, how best to use them?

Yeah, your skimmers are your advantage over the Orks. The Falcons are decent, depending on how you arm them. If you have the points, scatter laser in the turret and upgrade to a shuriken cannon.

The Wave Serpents are also good, only because as fast skimmers with decent armor, the greenskins will have trouble bringing them down. Again, scatter lasers are your friend.

If you have the models (or cash), then some Dire Avengers, bladestorm, and a Farseer casting Doom, should shred the lightly armored Orks. Just be mindful of any counter assault against your DA's.

The one thing that the Ork player had that made me super nervous (and vulnerable) were the rocket launchers. They made mincemeat out of me in the past, and I'm not sure how to defend against them. Stupid Koptas - think that's where he had them before. The guy usually fields 9 of them. MindWar worked in the past. Last game I had a squad of DA's doing Bladestorm, took out just under 1/3 of one of his 30-Boy squads before they got assaulted & slaughtered llickety-split. Don't know the stats on the rocket launcher - would the skimmers hold up against them? Or should I try ramming the Koptas with the Falcon?

The best defense against ork rockets is outranging them. They only have a 24" range, plus the 6" move. So use your 12" move to stay in the 30-36" range band and you can shoot scatterlasers at the orks all day and they won't be able to shoot back.

Deffkoptas go down to massed str6 shooting (they're tough, but have a poor save) or to str8 shooting (fire dragons) that instakills them.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Deffkoptas go down to massed str6 shooting (they're tough, but have a poor save) or to str8 shooting (fire dragons) that instakills them.

Problem here is the range on the fusion guns (12"). Unless I'd put them in a WS, how else could I get close enough to unload 2-5 shots into them?

Fire dragons should always be in a wave serpent? Or a falcon. Otherwise their range is too short.

Fire dragons should never be footslogging...

Fire prisms should work alot better than war walkers. Armour 12 and possible holofields if you add them makes them alot harder to kill. Scorpions wouldn't be that bad if he's foot slogging or something of the sort. Almost every weapon in the eldar arsenal is for orks or tyranids. Their 2 most hated enemies. How many points are you playing?

First, grab a Farseer with Spirit Stones, Doom, and Guide. These powers are killer against hordes, as Eldar have some units that can put out stupid amounts of shots, and twin-linking the entire process (to-hits and to-wounds) is just devastating against armies that rely on lots of bodies with not a lot of armor.

Dire Avengers with Blade Storm. Guided and firing at a Doomed target, they are the final word in troop-shredding. 33 Shots, 27 hitting on 3's, 5 on 2's (both with re-rolls), and wounding on 4's (with re-rolls). Watch 20 Orks fall over when this unit fires. The Psychic powers make all the difference, trust me.

Guardians can accomplish similar things, just not quite on the same scale. Still, a 10 man unit with a Scatter Laser with Guided and Doom can easily put down more than a dozen orks when it fires.

Wraithlords are another good call. Fairly cheap for what you get, he comes with 2 Flamers for free, plus whatever you want to pay for him to have. Walking up and hosing down an Ork unit with 2 Flamers (remember that their target should be Doomed). With Toughness 8, 3 Wounds, and a 3+ save he's more than a bit more sturdy than War Walkers.


Outside of these suggestions, I'd suggest concentrating your firepower, don't nickle and dime his units.

Fire Prisms would work nicely ^^

As well as Destructors if you wanna go that route

Panzerboy26 wrote:

First, grab a Farseer with Spirit Stones, Doom, and Guide. These powers are killer against hordes, as Eldar have some units that can put out stupid amounts of shots, and twin-linking the entire process (to-hits and to-wounds) is just devastating against armies that rely on lots of bodies with not a lot of armor.

Dire Avengers with Blade Storm. Guided and firing at a Doomed target, they are the final word in troop-shredding. 33 Shots, 27 hitting on 3's, 5 on 2's (both with re-rolls), and wounding on 4's (with re-rolls). Watch 20 Orks fall over when this unit fires. The Psychic powers make all the difference, trust me.

Guardians can accomplish similar things, just not quite on the same scale. Still, a 10 man unit with a Scatter Laser with Guided and Doom can easily put down more than a dozen orks when it fires.

Wraithlords are another good call. Fairly cheap for what you get, he comes with 2 Flamers for free, plus whatever you want to pay for him to have. Walking up and hosing down an Ork unit with 2 Flamers (remember that their target should be Doomed). With Toughness 8, 3 Wounds, and a 3+ save he's more than a bit more sturdy than War Walkers.


Outside of these suggestions, I'd suggest concentrating your firepower, don't nickle and dime his units.

Will likely be a 1k game (Helvost). Panzerboy, my only concern with the Wraithlords are PK's that he usually has on his Nobs. That and a rocket launcher took out my Wraithlord on our first game before I even had a turn! The Lord, granted, would be better off in close combat with the Boys, but on the other hand the 2-3 Walkers get off WAY more shots (as long as they're not stunned). I LOVE my Wraithlords. Question about your comment on Guardians w/ SL. How do you see this taking out >12 Orks, when it only gets off 4 shots?!? Remember you've got to get a 4+ to even hit, thanks to their piddly BS! As for the DA's & Bladestorm, that DID work fairly well in my last game - the turn before they got slaughtered in an assault. This may be prevented if I put them in a Serpent next time, but they'll still get slaughtered (especially if he WAAAAAAGH's again). Last thought - what about putting Eldrich Storm with the Farseer as well? You get to use the large blast template, and he's probably not going to get that many 6's to save his green skins.

If you have Eldrich storm, that prevents you from Guide/Doom. And its only S3. It could work, but keep those things in mind. You could use a CC unit to tie upp the orcs after you shoot soften them upp with DA. Try geting a seer concil as they will slauter orcs with destructor and always wound on 2+. I actuly prefer WarWalkers as they can take 2 coppies of the same wepon and be taken n squadrons, + they are cheaper then wraithlords. The guardians kill orcs by being within 12 and firing shuriken catapults

2 Fire Prisms should do REALLY good in a 1k game. Be careful how big you make your assault squads if you bring them.

2 x 6 Warp Spiders might not be that bad to use either. Warping back and forth throwing several wounds at him everytime.

Makhoy wrote:

Will likely be a 1k game (Helvost). Panzerboy, my only concern with the Wraithlords are PK's that he usually has on his Nobs. That and a rocket launcher took out my Wraithlord on our first game before I even had a turn! The Lord, granted, would be better off in close combat with the Boys, but on the other hand the 2-3 Walkers get off WAY more shots (as long as they're not stunned). I LOVE my Wraithlords. Question about your comment on Guardians w/ SL. How do you see this taking out >12 Orks, when it only gets off 4 shots?!? Remember you've got to get a 4+ to even hit, thanks to their piddly BS! As for the DA's & Bladestorm, that DID work fairly well in my last game - the turn before they got slaughtered in an assault. This may be prevented if I put them in a Serpent next time, but they'll still get slaughtered (especially if he WAAAAAAGH's again). Last thought - what about putting Eldrich Storm with the Farseer as well? You get to use the large blast template, and he's probably not going to get that many 6's to save his green skins.

While it's true that Power Klaws will be able to wound your Wraithlords, I think that with Doom and dual flamers, 2-3 Wraithlords (always take them in multiples and always concentrate their efforts), should pretty reasonably smash a decently sized mob of boyz. And how many Rokkits does he run? He must be having some very good luck, or simply have TONS of rokkits to down a Wraithlord before you even get to go on turn one.

For the Guardians? Ummmm.... every model in the unit has a gun? Once the Orks hit 16"-17" away, walk the unit forward and have all of them fire. If you concentrate the firepower of your army, you should be able to wipe the squad out.

As a suggestion for the Dire Avengers, yes, try putting them in a Wave Serpent equipped with Star Engines. Have them disembark and Bladestorm... and then after they have shot, move the Wave Serpent in the shooting phase to block the Mob's assault move on his coming turn.

As for Eldrich Storm, it's a kooky power that can work at times. Sure, it's only str. 3, but it's a non-scattering large blast template. Hit the mob you're going to attack with it with Doom beforehand so that you can get re-rolls to wound. However, I would honestly never actually pay points for it. The only times I ever cast it are when I take Eldrad Ulthran, since he comes with it without paying for it.

If it's a foot horde Nightspinners can be brutal against orks, as can Fire prisms.

Scatter lasers are your friend, as are Eldar Missile Launchers.

My wife likes using a 5 man reaper squad with the exarch taking a Tempest launcher and fast shot.

Vibro cannon can be effective against massed troop units.

There are multiple options for trying to tackle Ork hordes:

3 x War Walkers, Scatterlasers/Farseer w/ Guide

Nightspinner: dangerous terrain tests alone can net you extra kills

Fire Prisms

Fire Dragon Exarch w/ Dragons Breath Flamer/Crack Shot

Massed Dire Avenger shooting

Massed Guardian shooting/Farseer w/ Guide/Doom/Spirit Stones

Storm Guardians, 2 x Flamers/Warlock w/ Destructor

Seer Council w/ multiple Destructors

Lots of ways to kill light infantry

Panzerboy26 wrote:

As a suggestion for the Dire Avengers, yes, try putting them in a Wave Serpent equipped with Star Engines. Have them disembark and Bladestorm... and then after they have shot, move the Wave Serpent in the shooting phase to block the Mob's assault move on his coming turn.

Unfortunately, according to the Eldar FAQ, a vehicle can't use star engines in a turn that it embarks/disembarks passengers. So the blocker would have to be a different vehicle.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf

Also it's not clear whether Eldritch Storm scatters or not--there are long arguments about it on the YMDC forum.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

As a suggestion for the Dire Avengers, yes, try putting them in a Wave Serpent equipped with Star Engines. Have them disembark and Bladestorm... and then after they have shot, move the Wave Serpent in the shooting phase to block the Mob's assault move on his coming turn.

Unfortunately, according to the Eldar FAQ, a vehicle can't use star engines in a turn that it embarks/disembarks passengers. So the blocker would have to be a different vehicle.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf

Also it's not clear whether Eldritch Storm scatters or not--there are long arguments about it on the YMDC forum.

4th it was placed and didn't scatter (as blasted didn't scatter but did have to roll to hit)
5th all blasts scatter.

Hordes are easy, denied flank set up and you cut out 2/3rds of his army.

The last time I played an Ork we played by 1500 blind-pick lists, i.e. lists that had to be used against several opponents and most of them being Space Marines. The only problem with this is that generally our group loathes pitched battle, so he knew he was doing some form of control point battle - so he horded up properly.
My problem, using a standard mech list, was that I became afraid of committing. You need to focus on one mob at a time to bring it down, this means taking a chance with your Avengers and using multiple squads on a single target, if you want to kill him at all.
I know from experience that Fire Prisms work excellent against them. Even fired singly, they seldom miss, and you'll find the Ork player hiding his more expensive mobs from these prisms since they are very, very, hard for him to deal with.
If you know that you'll face Orks/hordes consistently, then magnetizing the Fire Prism so you can use them as Night Spinners is also a good idea. Night Spinners work a bit differently than Fire Prisms. With Prisms you want to target the middle of a mob, with Spinners you want to target clusters of units. Spinners kill units by touching them, while Prisms kill by picking off models inside the unit.
As for War Walkers, don't forget that they are Scouts! They are fragile against any and all armies, but the amount of firepower they can dish out is tremendous. Reserve them for Outflanking. Also, they do tend to work best with homogeneous weapons - that means a squad of three should have 6x the same weapon. Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon can work together since they are nearly copy-paste of each other - considering you only get one set of weapons in a War Walker carton.

--

If your group plays that JOTWW (or similar) does not require a roll to hit, then your group should be consistent and not require Eldritch Storm to scatter, either. (I.e. if you're silly enough to pay the points for Eldritch Storm, take it up with your opponent before you start the match)
I have seen Mind War pay for it's points - by the way, excellent for taking out hidden Klaws! - but never seen nor heard of Eldritch Storm function well.

Just be weary if he takes 3 units of lootas and 3 units of kannons, you will lose.

Your skimmers can run circles around Ork vehicles and troops, taking potshots with their greater range and damage potential. Put a squad of Dire Avengers with Bladestorm in a Falcon or a Wave Serpent, pop them out within range, unleash hell, then pop them back in. Works most of the time. Better yet, have a nearby Farseer cast Fortune on the squad, or Doom on the unit you plan on attacking. Falcon's work well for headhunting that foolish Warboss who decided to go it solo, turning him to vapor with the blast of a starcannon or pulse laser.

Zrrrr, everything Eldar is anti-horde. Eldar's hardest problem is lots of mech, but let's go down the list of anti-horde.

Striking Scorpions
Harlequins
Dire Avengers
Guardians
Guardian Jetbikes
Swooping Hawks(Not Recommended, but they are)
Warp Spiders
Scatter Laser/EML Vypers
Dark Reaper Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher
War Walker Standard Config.
Wraithlord w/ dual flamers and maybe Scatter Laser/EML
Fire Prism
Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Pulse Laser, and Shuriken Cannon.

AchillesFTW wrote:Guardians

... half right Storm guardians with triple flamers are good ... Defenders are bad at everything.

For this topic, combining Guide/Doom with Guardians make a mess of light infantry.