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Hi guys kinda new to this thing so bare with me. Been lookin at some CSM army lists as i have roughly 2000pts worth but cant think of a decent army to stand up to anything decent like the space marines or tyranids. Me and my brother we have been playin on and off for like 7 years now and i just dont think i have the right kind of things in my army so will need advice too also will need answers to some important questions.

so enough of my life story lol my army. Legally its 1900pts

HQ:
Abaddon The Dispoiler 275pts

Huron Blackheart 170pts

Total 440pts

Elite:
5x chosen
w/champ, w/heavy bolter, w/melta gun, w/p weapon, w/plasma pistol, w/icon of tzeentch, w/melta bombs 190pts

5x possessed CSM
w/champ, w/MOS 160pts

Total 350pts

Troops
10x CSM
w/champ, w/plasma pistol, w/p fist, w/plasma gun, w/flamer, w/icon of chaos glory, w/melta bombs 235pts

10x khorne berserkers
w/champ, w/p fist, w/plasma pistol, w/melta bombs 270pts

5x khorne berserkers
w/champ, w/p fist, w/plasma pistol, w/melta bombs, w/RHINO 235pts

Total 740pts


Heavy Support:

Land Raider
w/daemonic possession, havoc launcher 260pts



Total all together 1900pts

A question am i allowed to field 2 different named HQ's????

and how can i improve this army thanks for reading peace out

Possessed aren't that good, sadly, and neither is Huron Blackheart. I'd go with Daemon Princes - cheaper and better.

It looks like you just bought a battleforce, got some special characters, and bought a Land Raider. Even if it's 1900 it doesn't mean its performs as such.

yh i know pretty much that is wat i did erm i know i shud get daemon prince coz its also eternal warrior n has better stats i need to get one think i will make 2 chaos devisions but for now play him so can i use both huron and abaddon

darkhorse19 wrote:yh i know pretty much that is wat i did erm i know i shud get daemon prince coz its also eternal warrior n has better stats i need to get one think i will make 2 chaos devisions but for now play him so can i use both huron and abaddon

My brain now hurts.

y does ur brain hurt :S

Abaddon is typically played in higher point games. If you're wanting to use him, go for it. Drop Huron though, hes bad.

Your Chosen are all over the place. Figure out what you want to use them for, then equip them to suit their role. Mix-matching is like driving a car with different sized tires.
example. 5 Chosen w/ 5 Meltaguns in rhino- tank hunting

Possessed are also terrible. Random factors with high points costs. There are other things worth taking for less. Avoid using them.

Your Marines and Zerkers need rhinos, or to be beefed up 20 strong. In 5th ed. mobility is key. Small squads of expensive fragile foot-sloggers will be shot down.

A general rule for Chaos is plasma pistols are never worth their weight. For 10 points the champ could have a combi weapon instead.

It's also risky taking them on Zerker champs. You've got a 1/6 that it will overheat and possibly kill a 66 point+ model. They're better at sticking to what they know.
I would also drop the meltabombs, they have a powerfist. Bit overkill for a role they aren't really meant to fill.

Land Raider looks fine, though I would drop the havoc launcher. Balance out those Zerker squads 2x8 and put some in the Raider with Abaddon.

One thing you're greatly lacking is ranged fire support. Obliterators fill this role very well. Or some havocs.

i know i need oblits but i aint got none yet n one of the 10x zerkers goes in land raider coz i usually move raider upfield deploy zerkers to run rest of distance chosen are more for takin out transport atm and bein a nuisence so that my CSM can come up and lay down some fire. possessed are useless :-/ they aint killed nothin in ages i wouldnt say huron is useless tho coz wen abaddon is on field my opponent goes for him allowing huron to deal with nastier stuff like termies hes taken down god knows how many termies so far and as for tyranids lets not go there but how bowt a jetpack lord with twin lightning claws instead

Right bro first things first get some punctuation in your posts as it makes it hard to read.

second reduce one of your berserker squads to 8 and stick them in the raider with abaddon. This should stop me picking him of with ranged weaponry before he gets to reak havoc. Then the zerkers left should be put into the other squad to beef it up.

Next drop huron and the possesed and take 3 oblits with the mark of tzeench or nurgle to increase survivability and take a korne deamon prince.

lastly with the points youve saved boost your chosen squad with some meltas if you intend to hunt transports or some heavy bolters/plasma guns if your squad hunting this should make a nice and killy 2000 points army

feel free to improve this further fellow dakkites

scotta29 wrote:
...take 3 oblits with the mark of tzeench or nurgle to increase survivability...

It should be noted, that this is not possible, Oblits cannot take marks of any kind.

You are allowed to take 2 named HQs, that isn't an issue, the issue is choosing those HQs.

Abaddon is a monster in CC when he isn't poking himself in the eye, and a Daemon Possessed LR to get him there is ideal, but I would recommend dropping the Havoc Launcher, as the lowered BS kind of cripples it in the shooting department, and most of the targets you'll be aiming at with the standard Lascannons are a bit different from what you would be aiming at with the Launcher (unless you have points to fill out, then go right ahead). Even with this said, I should let you know that Abaddon has enough drawbacks to not be requested very often, and I even avoid taking him below games that aren't 2.5k points or higher.

Huron is subpar to just about every other HQ option in the codex, imo this includes even Lucius. He costs too much for what he does, and dies too easily considering this.

Other HQ choices I would recommend:

- Daemon Prince of any flavor, just so long as you give them wings (it is common to see DPs in pairs)
- Ahriman if you want a shooty HQ
- Kharn if you want another CC HQ
- Typhus if you can get another LR in the army and put him in a group of 3-4 termies.
- Chaos Sorceror w/ Wings, of any flavor
- Chaos Lord w/ Wings, of any flavor

I recommend wings for the Sorceror and Lord because jump infantry cannot ride vehicles, however infantry with wings are treated as jump infantry but can still ride in a vehicle.

I would recommend giving your Chosen a specific role. If you Infiltrate with them at the beginning of the game, I would recommend giving them just Melta guns and focus on taking out enemy tanks. If you Outflank with them, give them a Rhino and just about whatever weapons you want. Regardless, they work best when most of them are loaded with the same weapon; 5 dudes with flamers can make quick work of most any infantry regardless of the army they are shooting at.

Drop the Possessed... poor bastards just don't cut it. Maybe some day in a future codex we will get to choose their upgrades instead of rolling for them, but due to this, they are completely outranked for what they do by Khorne Berzerkers.

As for your troops, I would recommend getting a Rhino for every one you possibly can. One Rhino can be easily defeated, even first turn by many armies. Three or more Rhinos takes a bit more effort to take out. Rhinos are a Chaos godsend for Khorne: Turn 1 drive 12" and pop smoke, Turn 2 drive 12" and disembark, Turn 3 move 6" and assault while your now empty Rhino covers/tank shocks/commits to contesting objectives. If you only have 1 Rhino with ANYTHING in it, can take a simple Lascannon/Broadside/Psyflemandread to pop it, and then all of your troops are sitting ducks if there isn't enough cover to get across the field.
I would recommend dropping the Plasma pistols on the Khorne altogether (tbh, I would recommend dropping Plasma pistols altogether except for Plague Marines, which you do not have; Champions of chaos of any kind are expensive and risking suicide on them is pretty silly), no need to risk losing a CC monster whilst attempting to shoot, which isn't their forte. Give your CSM a specific special weapon, and give them two of them: if you take a flamer, take two, if you take a plasma gun, take two, melta, take two. I recommend not taking one of one gun and one of another as that extra roll for whatever it is you are attempting to do with them can make all the difference.
PFs aren't bad for any of what you have them on, although I personally prefer PWs on Khorne Skull Champs.

Obliterators will be requested a lot, and I will recommend them as well, but bear in mind, they can die just as easily as a terminator with 2 wounds but cost more than 2 Rhinos. Most guns that will be shot at them will make the fact that they have 2 wounds redundant, as most of those shots will be Str 8 or higher. They are versatile, use them for their versatility (remember, they can Deepstrike, although most of the time you'll want them on the field turn 1).

I'm no expert, take everything I say with a grain of salt. Most everything you will learn about your army won't be from forum boards, it will be from table boards where they are played on.

Thanks dudes i think its definatly going to b obliterators that i get next so awesome an yh i need to somehow spend more time on my chosen but tbh i will drop them if i have to to get a decent group of termies. Also i believe i will get a dp of somesorts and try with that as he and abaddon would propably make a nasty partnership. Also wat are peoples idea to gettin a raptor squad purely to jump on my ememy and make them focus some heavier fire on them need ur thoughts on this.
Thanks guys

Raptors can be nasty, and can also die very easily.

They can be used, very effectively, as hunters of *something*.

For instance, give them 2 meltas, a champ with a PF, and you have a vehicle/tank hunting party.

2 flamers and a champ with twin lightning claws, and they will tear up infantry like butter.

Icons that benefit them in the first set up is Khorne; Khorne or Slaanesh for the second; Chaos Glory works for both. This does not mean they HAVE to bring an icon, but if you are considering bringing Terminators, they work wonders deepstriking, and having mobile icons on the field makes them that much easier to safely deepstrike where you want them to.

To write a competitive CSM list:

HQ:
your DP with wings. Would you like MoN or MoS? Would you like two?

Elites:
These don't make it on very often. Maybe suicide termies. MAYBE.

Troops:
would you like all Plague marines? or mostly Plague marines and some Berzerkers?
Don't forget rhinos, now!

Fast Attack:
also probably wont be on a competitive list.

Heavy Support:
would you like 3x2 oblits? or 3x3 oblits?
OR 2x3 oblits and a defiler or 2x3 oblits and a vindicator?

herodotus wrote:To write a competitive CSM list:

HQ:
your DP with wings. Would you like MoN or MoS? Would you like two?

Elites:
These don't make it on very often. Maybe suicide termies. MAYBE.

Troops:
would you like all Plague marines? or mostly Plague marines and some Berzerkers?
Don't forget rhinos, now!

Fast Attack:
also probably wont be on a competitive list.

Heavy Support:
would you like 3x2 oblits? or 3x3 oblits?
OR 2x3 oblits and a defiler or 2x3 oblits and a vindicator?

After studying CSM heavily, I'll have to completely agree with this list. The DP with Wings gives you an 18" assault, which is always fun, but you may want to ditch Abaddon for a second DP, or maybe some sort of protection like Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch, due to people knowing this tactic, and therefore they'll be fired upon heavily. Many people also do the Slaanesh Whip tactic, which is pretty simple to grasp and use, and is quite effective, but, well, it's just not my personal taste.

For troops, Plague Marines are great for holding objectives, with that extra toughness. Berzerkers with a Rhino are devastating in close combat, and could possibly take down a horde army by themselves, depending on rolls. But, at the very least, you'll get your points back and then some in CC with them. However, back to that Slaanesh Whip tactic, you may also want some Noise Marines, as those special weapons they get fit perfectly into the collect-them-all-together-and-start-dropping-blasts theme. Plus, they're Slaanesh worshippers, so added points on the fluff.

And yeah, Obliterators dominate. 2+ Armor Save with Invul Save, and any weapon you can imagine + Slow and Purposeful. The only downside is, ironically, Slow and Purposeful, since they're always counted as moving through difficult terrain. Definitely get three or six of them, but no more. Save that last Heavy slot for something faster, like almost any of the tanks CSM offers, or the always sexy Defiler.

Now i dont agree with either of you as tbh i dont like using dp they are not all that good and cannot join groups of men so they are instantly at the firing line as for abaddon he is amazing when he is near the enemy all i have to do is put him with some termies i only want 1 squad of oblits as i need something with a decent large blast and a vindicator offers that luxury i think what i really need is to focus on troops gettin to enemy lines quickly pop a few shots and get shot at while my army gets chance to mobolise properly in key areas on the board