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Right now there is a long standing argument between me and another person at my FLGS. This is what's going on, he is a fluff Nazi, and I like to prove him wrong and shatter his world view on a game played with little plastic men. Now here is the question, actually a couple of questions. This is based off the current codex and the Nurgle fluff as it stands,

1) A plague marine squad in a rhino is un-fluffy, my point is that the death guard was trained to fight with their feet on the ground and moving forward with out the aid of vehicles. The person I get into this with, says that the death guard can use rhinos they just don't care about them and drive them till they break. Which is the better understanding of what Death Guard would do? Leave the rhinos and go on foot or take the rhinos and drive them into the ground and find more?

2) Nurgle raptors are they fluffy to use? In the fluff that I have read, Death Guard uses infantry and possessed vehicles. Raptors are Jump Infantry, and its safe to assume that they are fluffy to use.

3) Death Guard where trained to use their bolters above all else, moving forward and laying down a rain of bolter fire. At least this is what i have read. The question is, is it un-fluffy to use meltas and plasmas in a squad of Death Guard?

I figured I should turn to the people who know fluff the best, and that would be the great sages of the dakka dakka, and chances are these questions have already been answered in another thread, but with some like 21 million pages I thought it would be best to make a new thread. As always Thank you for your time in reading this and I hope to hear from the Great dakka dakka sages.

1: Above all the Deathguard are, like all marines, pragmatists. If Rhinos are necessary to suceed then Rhinos will be used.

2: Raptor cults are more or less independent but i see no reason why one particular cult shouldn't worship Nurgle

3: Once again, Spacemarines are pragmatists. A spacemarine force which dogmaticaly relies on bolters alone is barely more than canonfodder so i am pretty certain that even the Deathguard fields plenty of specialweapons.

1. The Death Guard is still unlikely to use Rhinos (in third edition the amount they could use was limited I think) but occasionally uses them.

2. This is unfluffy and in 3rd Edition Raptors could not have a Mark of Nurgle. They could only have a mark of Chaos Undivided or no mark. So, this is unfluffy.

3. As far as I'm aware it's fine to have Plasma and Melta Guns

1) The Death Guard, pre- or post-Heresy need to get from place to place, so I'd see nothing unfluffy in their driving Rhinos. One would, after all, presume that there were Techmarines among the traitors, and if the Death Guard can be bothered to maintain their guns, why not also their rides?

2) Jump packs were available during the heresy, so why not? Frankly there's no particularly good reason why any of the traitor legions shouldn't be able to field jump-pack assault marines. Also, who cares if the Death Guard couldn't in 3rd ed? They could in Rogue Trader. All that tells us is that different editions are inconsistent.

3) Or course not, both were in use during the Heresy; presumably the Death Guard fielded both then and would continue to do so. The Imperial Fists are also famous for their bolter drill, but no-one would expect them to turn up for a fight without some anti-tank weapons.

There is, really, no good reason why the Traitor legions should be unable to field any equipment available to the legions during the Great Crusade, which is how the rules and army lists worked in Realm of Chaos.

Unfortunately, Games Workshop, when writing the Chaos Codex for 2nd edition elected to invent a lot of pointless extra unit types and write fluff for them which fitted very badly with the established background, a situation which remains to this day. In that regard (and only that one) the most recent codex is something of an improvement.

I thank you all for your answers to my questions and it certainly helps out with my list and the arguments that i seem to get lumped into.

If you don't mind me picking your brains a little more I have another question and i haven't been able to find the answer.

Nurgle's favored number is seven, this I know. The question is, What is up with the number three? i haven't find it in any fluff any where but every model you see has three of something on it. The nurgle greater daemon has 3 "boils" on it, the banner for nurgle has three skulls or holes depending. Almost every model for nurgle has the three holes on it. Even the mark of nurgle has it, is there a reason other than it being the mark? or am i missing something in the fluff some where?

English Assassin wrote:2) Jump packs were available during the heresy, so why not? Frankly there's no particularly good reason why any of the traitor legions shouldn't be able to field jump-pack assault marines. Also, who cares if the Death Guard couldn't in 3rd ed? They could in Rogue Trader. All that tells us is that different editions are inconsistent.

According to the fluff the Raptors split off from the rest of the Traitor Legions and became the Cult of the Raptor. Though they work with and for other Chaos Space Marines, they don't really join 'em.

But I'm sure if you had a good fluffy reason or if they were just count as Raptors (like Plague Marines with wings or something) the OP could easily use Raptors with the Mark of Nurgle without pissing off the Fluff Nazi.

LoneLictor wrote:

English Assassin wrote:2) Jump packs were available during the heresy, so why not? Frankly there's no particularly good reason why any of the traitor legions shouldn't be able to field jump-pack assault marines. Also, who cares if the Death Guard couldn't in 3rd ed? They could in Rogue Trader. All that tells us is that different editions are inconsistent.

According to the fluff the Raptors split off from the rest of the Traitor Legions and became the Cult of the Raptor. Though they work with and for other Chaos Space Marines, they don't really join 'em.

But I'm sure if you had a good fluffy reason or if they were just count as Raptors (like Plague Marines with wings or something) the OP could easily use Raptors with the Mark of Nurgle without pissing off the Fluff Nazi.

The problem with that bit of background is that it makes little sense - hence my grumbling about the 2nd ed. codex which introduced it. It defies Warhammer 40,000's already-tenuous internal logic that every Traitor in possession of a jump pack, be they rot-infested Death Guard or lobotomised World Eater, should en masse, across all the legions, abandon not only their comrades but their Chaotic patrons and somehow also their marks.

I now have the possibly cool/possibly silly image of bloated Death Guard assault marines drifting across the battlefield, suspended by the pestilential gases which fill them, however.

PapaPiggy wrote:I thank you all for your answers to my questions and it certainly helps out with my list and the arguments that i seem to get lumped into.

If you don't mind me picking your brains a little more I have another question and i haven't been able to find the answer.

Nurgle's favored number is seven, this I know. The question is, What is up with the number three? i haven't find it in any fluff any where but every model you see has three of something on it. The nurgle greater daemon has 3 "boils" on it, the banner for nurgle has three skulls or holes depending. Almost every model for nurgle has the three holes on it. Even the mark of nurgle has it, is there a reason other than it being the mark? or am i missing something in the fluff some where?

the symbols of Chaos have nothing to do with their sacred numbers. Nurgles symbol of buboes can either be a cluster of boils, eyes, or other unpleasent affliction.

the number 3 has some additional significance outside of 40k. if you have 3 of something, it tends to symbolize plenty and varity. hence the 3 course meal, the 3 color rule for eating food. the word "several" is actually a specific number designation, 3 or more. 1 is 1, 2 is a pair, 3 or more is several(which can also mean many)

its also an Odd number. Odd numbers tend to be percieved as limitless, non-specific, digits. Even numbers seem stable.


3 could also be seen as the 3 orafices of the human body(nose, mouth, and poop chute)

I do admit, I have rolled my eyes a few times at just plain illogical ideas in the lore. Now, I love the over-the-top nature of 40k. 10 Space Marines killing thousands of cultists, HUGE ships with BIGGER guns, as well as...Orks in general. BUT there is a lot of lore that just doesn't make sense.

The traitors legions have been around for 10,000 years. I doubt any human can conceive what you can do if you lived for 10,000 years! The ideas and structures of the Pre and right after Heresy MIGHT last 10,000 years. But most probably won't. Then take into the fact that each Legion had HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Marines and has also deteriarated into MANY (3 or more ) different warbands. So, hell, when talking about the Death Guard, is Mortarion even INVOLVED with this particular branch. I'd say that's similar to a Ultramarines successor taking orders only from Marneus Calgar. Possible, and I'm sure they'd respect/revere him, but doubtful.

Also, Space Marines aren't one to ignore tools, and Chaos Space Marines even more so. Now, I understand that Rhinos might not SCREAM fluffy, but they sure can be. Hell, despite the current Chaos codex being lack luster, bland and lacking awesome rules, it does have one thing: The flexibility to have almost any unit in any combination needed. What about a Death Guard captain that is eager to obtain Daemonhood (aren't they all) and takes a group of his followers on conquest in Nurgle's name. He is impatient, angry and egotistic, good traits for a Chaos Lord and since Chaos doesn't exstinguish free will COMPLETELY (excluding Angron's psychos, Thousand Sons dust Marines and some REALLY addled Slaaneshi marines) there is no excuse to not have personality traits that don't characterize Mortarian and his ideas of combat.

So this Nurgle Chaos Lord is impatient. And HATES walking on his own. Now, in a more Nurgely manner, he parades around on a Palaquin, watching Plague wreck around the battlefield. And when the battle is done, he certainly will! But when the fight is starting, he needs that moment of triumph to come NOW! And his minions are only so competant. So he goes himself. To the frontline, to watch face to face as poxes and plagues eat his victims alive! But walking is straight out! A Land Raider might be good. And classy. But he needs SPEED! So how about a Bike? Or even a Jetpack! Hell, Termie Armor and teleporting! Doesn't matter, he wants to clash with champions, feast on their soul, and please Papa Nurgle!

This Nurgle Chaos lord needs EVERYONE to be there NOW! Rhinos all over, Bikes and Jump Packs at the flanks, nibbing like flea bitten dogs, spreading faster than Influenza amongst old people! He's unstoppable! And as a Daemon Prince...he never grew wings. IRONY!

Ok, THAT got out of hand. I hope there is a point in there SOMEWHERE...

Huh... didn't know there was so much information out there about the number three. But its was a well thought out and great answer. It has been on my mind, everything about nurgle is three (of something or another). but i could get past the scared number of 7. I thank you for that answer. It helps out a lot, either because i wouldn't have found it, or because some one else found it and I am just lazy, you choose which one.

Dude, that would be irony. But i guess what you are saying that if i want to play fluffy i can just make up a well thought out back story and play the fluff i wrote and leave the games work shop writers to do what they do best, take a good idea and ruin it. But then again, why would a chaos lord of nurgle really want to get to the front of the battle field? They aren't looking for blood shed, they don't get pleasure out of killing and being killed. They mostly just want to cough into their hands and shake strangers hands and laugh on into the night. It was a great idea and post and you got the wheels turning in my head. Its just to bad that the hamster is dead. Again I thank all of you who have taken the time to help me out with nurgle fluff,

I'll pay my respects to the great dakka dakka sages. Thank you again O' mighty ones with the knowledge of little plastic men and the stories made up for them.

Second Captain of the Death Guard was a jump pack guy.

Also, raptors aren't Death Guard.

Death Guard also made extensive use of marine special weapons (plasma, melta, flamer). You can advance with those. It's heavy weapons they weren't big on, since it kept you stationary.

Bringing back up this old thread, and some how getting into another argument with a friend over what is fluffy for a death guard army and what isn't. I would like to say now that i have been labeled as an anti-fluff nazi. But on the brighter side of things here are the questions that i have for you guys in hopes to find an answer. And i am hoping that i can find truth to these points or not.

1) Death guard, not just a plague marine, would never use a jump pack. I am not saying that raptors wouldn't help.or raptors who have given them selves to nurgle. I am saying a member of the actual death guard, wouldn't use a jump pack. Because of their teachings. Is this true or am i missing something some place? I know that the in game unit is called a raptor squad, but IF you changed their name to assault squad and forgot all about raptors. Would it be fluffy to have death guard with jump packs?

2) Two daemon princes in the same army. This would work with any chaos army, Can you have 2 daemon princes in the same army and have it make sense fluff wise? My thinking is that, Once a lord gets to the point where the gods have given the lord the power to morph into a daemon prince, He wouldn't want any one else telling him what to do. OR is there a higharchy in the daemon world? Would one daemon prince listen to another one? Or would they fight for leadership? Break the army into two and go different ways?

3)Did death guard use sorcerers? Simple question, Comes from running 2 in the same death guard list.

4)This isn't nurgle pre-say. But is a siege shield a dozer blade? It stands to reason that a siege shield is in fact a dozer blade, but a dozer blade isn't a siege shield.

More then likly i'll have more questions. And i hope that the all mighty dakkaites can help. The knowledge of many is far better then my own. Most of the fluff is in the books from black library, But with painting and modeling i can't find the time to read all of the books. So pleading with the great minds Of you guys is what i am left with. I Thank you guys for your help.

1) I don't see any good reason why pre-Heresy Death Guard would not have been equipped with jump packs when situations made them tactically useful; that the mass infantry advance was their preferred tactic doesn't mean it was their only tactic. As I said earlier, the notion that every Traitor Marine with a jump pack joined the Raptor cult makes no sense.

2) There's no reason why not, it's reasonable to assume that there exists a pecking order among daemons, and it isn't difficult to imagine reasons why two daemon princes might (however uneasily) ally, or why one might find itself obliged to serve another.

3) Presumably yes, we haven't met any Death Guard librarians in print because there have been no Death Guard stories set pre-Nikea. So far as anybody is aware, however, all the Legions had a Libraruim, and all the Traitors except the World Eaters use sorcery.

4) Dunno. Dozer blades look cool, however, so why not.

I still think that English's idea of Balloon Marines is much, much better than Jump pack Death Guard ever could be. EVAR.

You'd think if a creature of pure chaos existed, then it would in fact never take orders from another being. Maybe a daemon prince isn't pure chaos... hmmmm Thank you for the answer, I think my Nurgle assault troops will thank you after i finish them.

2 Daemon Princes would have some contention between themselves.

the older Prince would probably be in charge, but the younger one would always be undermining him and trying to increase his own power.

So it would be a love hate thing. If you wanted to play fluffy you would have to run one in and under mind the whole army. But when it comes to fluff you have 2 daemon princes, both trying to gain the favor of the gods. The army would began to split apart. One side going with the older and the other going with the younger. After this has happened about three times, Other chapters would soon realize it and start fights with in one another. The older daemon prince would no longer allow the younger to control troops, Forcing him to branch off and take troops with him. Kinda like an infinite loop. But thats just how i see it.

Of course that might happen eventually, but Daemons have a different perspective on time and the process could take centuries. They could go through several warbands before actually coming to blows with each other.

Regarding Death Guard and Sorcerers:

See: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Apostles_of_Contagion

And more specifically:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Necrosius

In summary, the Apostles of Contagion broke away from the Death Guard. Their leader, Necrosius, was a former apothecary of that Legion who tried to combat the plague which was the final corruption of that legion. When he finally surrendered to the inevitable, he became a socerer in service to Nurgle. The split from the Death Guard at large came about for reasons unassociated with his sorcery.

Wow... Dude you are the king. Thank you for the links and the answer to my questions. I hope that in the future you all will continue to answer my questions. I thank you all.