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I was wondering what the tactical differences were between the Loyalist Chapters and the Traitor Legions were.

Quite a few. CSM lose ATSKNF for +1 Leadership and a CCW. Basically, this makes them a little better in combat; they also are 1 point cheaper. Loyalists also have Combat Tactics and Combat Squads, which are pretty nice to have.

As a whole, the Traitors' support options are considerably overcosted, while Loyalists have a number of options (Landspeeders, Bikes, Predators, Razorbacks, etc.), CSM have to rely on predictable and usually overcosted units (Obliterators, Termicide, Predators sort of... thats it,

And then CSM have the whole Mark/Icon system, which give slight buffs to the squad for usually a pricey premium.

CSM also have Cult Troops, which "specialize" in certain things in theory. Plague Marines are tough, Berzerkers are killy, Noise Marines are shooty and assaulty, and Thousand Sons are resilient and can murder Marines fairly well.

And of course, the fluff.... obviously totally different. Chaos has the coolest and most interesting fluff in my opinion, it's what got me into 40k actually. Loyalists have pretty cool fluff also, if you prefer the good guys xD

odorofdeath wrote:Quite a few. CSM lose ATSKNF for +1 Leadership and a CCW. Basically, this makes them a little better in combat; they also are 1 point cheaper. Loyalists also have Combat Tactics and Combat Squads, which are pretty nice to have.

As a whole, the Traitors' support options are considerably overcosted, while Loyalists have a number of options (Landspeeders, Bikes, Predators, Razorbacks, etc.), CSM have to rely on predictable and usually overcosted units (Obliterators, Termicide, Predators sort of... thats it,

And then CSM have the whole Mark/Icon system, which give slight buffs to the squad for usually a pricey premium.

CSM also have Cult Troops, which "specialize" in certain things in theory. Plague Marines are tough, Berzerkers are killy, Noise Marines are shooty and assaulty, and Thousand Sons are resilient and can murder Marines fairly well.

And of course, the fluff.... obviously totally different. Chaos has the coolest and most interesting fluff in my opinion, it's what got me into 40k actually. Loyalists have pretty cool fluff also, if you prefer the good guys xD

Not a bad summary...

Unit size is also very important, chaos can oftentimes take a much larger unit as compared to loyalists.

Oh yes, forgot that bit. Loyalist squads are all capped at 10, while most CSM squads can go up to 30 men. Sometimes that can be fun.

CageUF wrote:
Not a bad summary...

Unit size is also very important, chaos can oftentimes take a much larger unit as compared to loyalists.

Yeah, that seemed like the most obvious difference, but I wasn't sure how much further the differences went...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

odorofdeath wrote:Oh yes, forgot that bit. Loyalist squads are all capped at 10, while most CSM squads can go up to 30 men. Sometimes that can be fun.

Also this.

Loyalists are more shooting oriented, but it has the versatility to do both (assault). They also have more options regarding mobility. They have vast array of choices in their codex, giving it a alot of variation.

As for chaos, they have the trend of elite-class troops, softly eliminating that "gakky" mandatotry troop choice (i.e Tac squads dakkites hate so much). CSM infantry also tend to be fearless whilst there vehicles being immune to stun and shake - persistence. It is safe to say that CSM is more close combat oriented and more decisive.

They have different units and even the same/similar units may have different stats and/or rules. Loyalists tend to have more organized squads with benefits coming from the organization while Chaos tends to be more free-for-all-build-your-squads-with-your-own-style. Overall, they have different rules, fluff and named characters. Both armies can be very close-combat oriented or shooty. Stereotypically, Chaos is more cc and Loyalists are more shooty. Also, Chaos named characters tend to be more 'power-house' then Loyalist characters who tend to be more towards improving the army itself.

I have played CSM for a year. that may not seem like long but I quickly discovered that while my Khorne focused army has faired well in combat, defeating a mob of Orks on one occasion without suffering too many casualties, even when i pack as much shooting as possible into it I can never seem to come close to the shooting of my opponent so far the only opponent i out shot has been Orks. I have been beaten in shooting by Tau (Lots of guns), Salamander space marines , Blood angels and Imperial Guard once so i can safely say CSM are quite combat centred.

All good stuff above.

I'd add CSMs look more versatile and less specialized than SM. I particularly like that they have pistols, so you get extra CC capability, so people can be surprised by the number of attacks you can throw at them, especially if you suddenly put aside the boltguns, whoop out the pistols and knives, shoot them in the face, and then charge them with what appears to be a tactical squad. That is a lot of S4 AP5 shots and extra S4 CC attacks to have, especially against poorly armored opponents.

Also you seem to get more options within the same list than the themed SM codexes.

On the downside, being less shooty can be annoying if you are accustomed to that style of play.

odorofdeath wrote:Oh yes, forgot that bit. Loyalist squads are all capped at 10, while most CSM squads can go up to 30 men. Sometimes that can be fun.

I didn't know Chaos could field units that large. I never see Chaos get played down here. How common is it to field a full unit?

Not very common, above 10 and you can't in in a Rhino and afaik you don't get any additional special or heavy weapons so you really don't gain much. Most of the time you tend to see small units in competitive lists, 5 Plague Marines can take 2 Meltaguns already so why take more, they fit in a Rhino and are still annoying to kill.

Generally CSM probably rate as the least flexible of all the Marine variants, even nilla Marines have more options than them (admittedly with a slightly different skill set on the basic Marine) and Space Wolves etc blow them out of the water (hence the explosion in counts as for Chaos).

Wow, this is all very good advice. Thanks guys! I think I may have to start a Chaos army!

Loyalists have TH/SS Termies, need I say more....

Anubis_513 wrote:Loyalists have TH/SS Termies, need I say more....

Yes, Loyalist Terminators are awesome, but I would like to know what makes them different from Traitor Chaos Teminators.

Shayden wrote:

Anubis_513 wrote:Loyalists have TH/SS Termies, need I say more....

Yes, Loyalist Terminators are awesome, but I would like to know what makes them different from Traitor Chaos Teminators.

Chaos Terminators can get a 4+ invulnerable or toughness 5 if you're willing to pay for the mark of the relevant Chaos God. They have twin-linked bolters or combi-weapons instead of Storm Bolters. Reaper Autocannon instead of Assault Cannons. For a points premium Chaos Terminators can all get an extra attack. Chaos Terminators don't scatter when deep striking within 6" of a Chaos Icon which are usually all over your army.

Chaos Terminators cannot pick up Storm Shields or Thunder Hammers, but can get paired lightning claws.

Chaos Terminators are usually used in small groups with combi-meltas to teleport in and wreck a vehicle worth more points than them.

This is CSM:

Half the things the codex has are overcoted and/or useless so it's very predictable.

And they have no Assault Cannons or Drop Pods (those are on my wishes-that-will never-be-granted list).

That said, the cult troops makes the force interesting and viable to me (other than the AWESOME fluff). I, and many other people like to use cult troops while supported by regular marines (and I personally rarely take Marks of Chaos on regular marines, though many people do).

If no cult troops are used, Codex: Chaos Space Marines is basically Codex: Space Marines with less options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jimsolo wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Oh yes, forgot that bit. Loyalist squads are all capped at 10, while most CSM squads can go up to 30 men. Sometimes that can be fun.

I didn't know Chaos could field units that large. I never see Chaos get played down here. How common is it to field a full unit?

Also, most units are capped at 20, not 30. It isn't very common at all to see anything over 10 anyway with everyone wanting Rhinos.

CSM has nicer troop options than nilla C:SM.

Tac squads are a mixed blessing. Their versatility with regards to combat squadding and a heavy and special can be hit or miss.

I personally like standard csm marines over the cults. Cheap, can take 2 special weapons so you don't mix roles in the same tiny squad, making them more durable.

2 plasma/2 melta and powerfist in a rhino with possession i think is a cheap, durable, anti something specialized and better at cc than nilla troops.

Nitros14 wrote:

Shayden wrote:

Anubis_513 wrote:Loyalists have TH/SS Termies, need I say more....

Yes, Loyalist Terminators are awesome, but I would like to know what makes them different from Traitor Chaos Teminators.

Chaos Terminators can get a 4+ invulnerable or toughness 5 if you're willing to pay for the mark of the relevant Chaos God. They have twin-linked bolters or combi-weapons instead of Storm Bolters. Reaper Autocannon instead of Assault Cannons. For a points premium Chaos Terminators can all get an extra attack. Chaos Terminators don't scatter when deep striking within 6" of a Chaos Icon which are usually all over your army.

Chaos Terminators cannot pick up Storm Shields or Thunder Hammers, but can get paired lightning claws.

Chaos Terminators are usually used in small groups with combi-meltas to teleport in and wreck a vehicle worth more points than them.

Loyalist Termies ;
They come with storm bolters and power fists as standard with the sergeant instead has a power weapon with squad sizes of 5-10
For every 5 Termies you can replace the Storm Bolter with a Heavy Flamer(5pts) or Assault Cannon(30pts) or take a Cyclone Missile Launcher(30pts) which is a missile launcher with Heavy2
So a squad with Cyclone Missile Launcher or Assault Cannon=230pts then 40pts for each extra termie so a full squad(unlikely) with additional weapon would be; 560pts
Note: The sergeants only difference is his power weapon

CSM Termies ;
Twin-Linked Bolters and Power Weapons as standard with Squad sizes at 3-10
Give them Combi-Bolters at 5pts each
A minimum size squad can take a Heavy Flamer(5pts) or Reaper Autocannon(25pts) which is a Twin-Linked Autocannon and then take and additional Heavy weapon if the sqaud is 10-man
Each Termie is 30pts, for 10pts any termies can be upgraded to a champion for 10pts giving them +1A, they can take a Powerfist or Lightning Claw for 10pts each or replace all weaponry with Twin Lightning Claws
They can then Take a Mark of Chaos, Khorne +1A (30pts), Nurgle +1T (50pts?),Tzeentch +1 Inv Save (40pts), Slannesh +1I (10pts?)
Also they will not scatter when deep striking within 6" of an icon of chaos of which a good chaos army has lots of.

So a 5 man squad with reaper Autocannon, mark of Khorne , with a Lightning Claw and Combi-Weapon each= 325pts that is good to deep stike and blow some stuff up and is well prepared if it then gets charged or in a Land Raider disembark within 6", Rapid fire or maybe Combi-Flamer then assault to get 5 attacks each that re-roll to wound

Then a Loyalist assault squad cost 200pts with 40pts per extra with standard lightning claws and can take TH/SS for free so no shooting but 4 attacks on the charge with LC or just 3 on the charge that are great against vehicles and a 3+ inv with TH/SS

A CSM squad with LC of the same size with all champions and Khorne costs 280pts but gets 6 attacks an the charge
Actually drop Khorne and Champions they have the same amount of attacks for the same cost

I prefer to give one LC to my CSM termies so they can still shoot

Those are the differences between SM and CSM termies

Also if you go to blood angels Termies they get the red thirst and can take chainfists for 5pts and assault sqauds have to pay 5pts for TH/SS

The only difference i know of for Grey knights Termies get 2W and Nemesis Force Weapons which give them +2S (I think)

So there you go the differences i know of between Armies Termies though if someone could say if there are any differences that I missed like if Space Wolves have any differences