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Was playing some games today, and after getting some sweeping victories I was getting a sense that people were getting frustrated with my list. I asked if they thought my list was cheesy, and they said it was. They said the only thing worse than my list was lists that straight up exploited broken game mechanics (Teclis ect), but I did not see there point of view. I wanted a solid but fluffy Nuln list, with lots of black powder weapons and the Arch lector from Nuln also represented. A lot of popular competitive Empire options are not present (War altar, cheap Lvl 4 with any more, Flaggies, Stank, Rocket batteries) Also wanted to theme around late Medieval Terico pike and shot formations (Halberds and gunner detachments) with artillery and heavy cavalry support.

Here is the list:

Arch Lector, Dawn Armor, Shield- 153pts
Captain, BSB, AoMI- 100pts
Warrior Priest, Heavy Armor, Shield- 96pts
Warrior Priest, Heavy Armor, Shield- 96pts

49 Halberds, Full Command- 265pts
10 Handgunner Detachment- 80pts
10 Handgunner Detachment- 80pts

49 Halberds, Full Command- 265pts
10 Handgunner Detachment- 80pts
10 Handgunner Detachment- 80pts

10 Knights Griffon, Full Command- 270pts

38 Greatswords, Full Command- 410pts

Mortar- 75pts
Mortar- 75pts
Mortar- 75pts
Cannon- 100pts
Cannon- 100pts
Cannon- 100pts

2500pts


If it is cheesy, are there any suggestions on making it more fluffy but still somewhat competitive. Any feedback or suggestions are welcomed

Empire artillery is pretty damn strong. The only way you can make a fluffy list for an artillery heavy faction is to make a 'cheesy' list unfortunately.

If you want to play with it you should probably find WAAC opponents because people playing less extremely powerful lists might not have a very fun game.

It is very competitive but not entirely OTT.

It could be much worse, for example one could drop the handgunners and knights (and a few men from each squad) and add 2 Stanks.

First thing that hit me was "OMG no wizard!" but then i realized you have the +4 dispel dice. I would however rip off one unit of handgunners and a few halberdiers to make space for a simple Lvl 2 wizard of beast magic. Throwing 6 dice at the signiture spell can win games, and having that +2 will help dispelling alittle more. (also maybe take a dispel scroll on him?)

I have considered dropping Knights and handgunners for steam tanks, or dropping the handgunners for a level 4 shadow (withering+mortars, Mindrazor, pit of shades). I am just worried that dropping my weak link in the list (Handgunners) and adding powerful stuff is going to make the list even more cheesy and awful to play against.

Im not seeing a problem here. Your list doesnt even have any magic in it, the knights have almost no killing power, the handgunner detachments likely wont make their points back and you have one hammer unit that is susceptible to save or dies.

Im guesing this is like 2400 pts or something, so you really should have 3 mortars and 3 canons at this points level.

+4 DD is tough for your opponent's magic phase but you are dispelling with a +0 and hes casting with a +4.

And your general only has a 3+ save so thats kind of risky.

Your chances of a mortar hitting dead on is only 1/3rd, and unless they are squishy elves, you are only killing something like 18 t3 fodder models anyway.

Question wrote:Im not seeing a problem here. Your list doesnt even have any magic in it, the knights have almost no killing power, the handgunner detachments likely wont make their points back and you have one hammer unit that is susceptible to save or dies.

Im guesing this is like 2400 pts or something, so you really should have 3 mortars and 3 canons at this points level.

+4 DD is tough for your opponent's magic phase but you are dispelling with a +0 and hes casting with a +4.

And your general only has a 3+ save so thats kind of risky.

Your chances of a mortar hitting dead on is only 1/3rd, and unless they are squishy elves, you are only killing something like 18 t3 fodder models anyway.

Exactly what I was thinking when I was building the list. I purposely left out strong elements (LvL 4 wiz, Altar, ect) and added weak but themed units like the Handgunners and Knights. Yet after all this, it still gets labeled as a cheese list by some.

I give it a 6 on the cheesy scale.

Go ahead and play it. It could be a challenging list to play against, but I don't think anyone is going to pack up his models after he sees the army across the table. Now... If you dropped the knights, eight great swords, and a few war machines in order to add a big nasty wizard, and/or some flagellants... THAT list would make me squirm.

-Jim

you only have 6 pieces of artillery that isn't the cheesiest that it could be, there are no hellstorm rockets and the Gattling gun things so its ok in my book its only kinda cheesy

i bet the people who called it cheesy lost to you? haha thats what people said when i took 3 units of chaos warriors as my army in a 2000 pts game:| i had 3 units and 3 characters and they thought i was playing points denial... but i wouldn't mind playing against your list

i would question your motivs if you played it casually. but in a tourney whatever. i usually like 3-4 warmachines if i am in an army that has them.

bob501 wrote:you only have 6 pieces of artillery that isn't the cheesiest that it could be, there are no hellstorm rockets and the Gattling gun things so its ok in my book its only kinda cheesy

Exactly what I thought. If I wanted to make a broken list, I would be taking 3x Cannon, 3x Mortar, 2x Rocket Batteries and 2x Engineers.

Not chessy at all in any way shape or form.

OPs oponents are a pack whinging girls.

You like warmachines so you have fielded warmachines oh noes. Gunlines are not even close to power gaming yes you loose alot of models for a few urns then whats left of your army crashes into the enemys line and owns face because gunlines cant afford all the toys AND good defensive blocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

studderingdave wrote:i would question your motivs if you played it casually. but in a tourney whatever. i usually like 3-4 warmachines if i am in an army that has them.

I would question your ability to play the game at all if you get upset if your opponent dosent put a uncompetive army in front of you.

Seeing as how 50 halbrediers are really cheap and will tarpit most units easily, i would say that empire can afford warmachines and defensive blocks....

Question wrote:Seeing as how 50 halbrediers are really cheap and will tarpit most units easily, i would say that empire can afford warmachines and defensive blocks....

Ever seen what HE elites can do to a block of 50 empire state troops (some of the most overpriced core troops)......Thats not the point anyway if your army doesent have the tools to deal with war machines then you kinda deserve to get owned and have already lost the gaame at the list building stage.

Truth is most gamers in this hobby really dont have a clue they jsut line there armies up and march forward and if anything stops them it must be cheesy.

Most elites only kill 10 or so t3 fodder models a turn due to 5 wide frontage.

If this list is considered cheesy then I best redesign my Empire list. I have nastier lists then this design for lower point values.

Imagine 1200 with Popemobile Flagellents and Great Swords plus 3 war machines and Some Handgunners as well.

If the players at you're store are giving you crap because you smash their face in , tell them to make better armies or stop bitchen about losing to a semi competative list.

But if YOU are looking for some fun casual games you could make the 2 units of halberds squads into 4 units of 25 with 1 detachment of handgunners for each squad. And make the greatswords into 2 squads of 20. You would have to do some point shuffling, but its a little bit easier to play against and it makes it a more tactical battle for you rather than wait and shoot and tar pit.

The list you made is a nice list compared to the lists I have seen that are WAAC.

The list is designed in a competitive, I want to win format. Does that rub people the wrong way? Like I don't even know what people think about list building for friendly games. Am I supposed to look at the book and decide what is best then purposefully not use those options? You want an empire player to play all state troops and knights or what?

I know it can be boring for players to face this much shooting because in the first few turns, they will be mostly putting their toys away, but in reality state troops and empire war machines are the easiest to kill once you get there. Empire war machines are almost impossible to protect from any kind of dedicated war machine hunter so in that respect they can be free points for the opponent if they include something(as they should be doing) to go after them.

By the way, small units for the core units might be even better as you can run away or give up a few points to take a charge then run and leave them open to more shooting. I'd still keep the greatswords horded up to be on cleanup duty. I have tried the 50 horded halberds with WP a few times, and they always fall short of expectations for them.

Changed the list up a bit to round out the magic. Cheesier or not?

Arch Lector, AoMI, Great Weapon- 156pts
Wizard Lord, LvL 4, Talisman of Preservation, Rod of Power- 285pts (Maybe life or Shadow)
Captain, BSB, full plate, enchanted shield, sword of might- 113pts
Warrior Priest, Heavy Armor, Shield- 96pts
Warrior Priest, Heavy Armor, Shield- 96pts

49 Halberds, Full Command- 265pts

49 Halberds, Full Command- 265pts

20 Handgunners, Banner, musician- 175pts

38 Greatswords, Full Command- 410pts

5 Pistoliers, Musician, Outrider with Repeater Pistol- 114pts

Mortar- 75pts
Mortar- 75pts
Mortar- 75pts
Cannon- 100pts
Cannon- 100pts
Cannon- 100pts

2500pts