EPIC Cheese-off. Doom Vs. Lash....GO!

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**Kitzz**

Can a Psyker use Lash of Submission to move the Doom of Malan'tai before its Spirit Leech goes off in their own shooting phase?

**Lukus83**

No.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ore specifically DoM uses his ability at the start of the shooting phase. If you use Lash it isn't the start of the shooting phase any more.

**Kitzz**

What if you say, "I want to use Lash at the start of my shooting phase," and then because two rules conflict you use tMIR?

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Umm no, First off the DoM's happens at the beginning. Lash is used instead of a weapon IIRC

**woodbok**

Actually no, Lash isn't a psychic shooting attack.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

"a psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon".

Stole this from the other thread, this is from Lash

**woodbok**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:"a psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon".

Stole this from the other thread, this is from Lash

But it doesn't say it's a psychic shooting attack. It says you may use it instead of firing a weapon.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

OK so that happens after the BEGINNING of the shooting phase. Never once did I say it was a PSA, however Before a unit may opt to shoot the beginning of the phase has happened.

**Kitzz**

Where in the rules is the following stated?

"Before a unit may opt to shoot the beginning of the phase has happened."

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

The Shooting Phase-Lemme spell it out for ya ... PG 15BGB
1Check LoS,Pick a Target
2Check Range
3Roll to Hit
4Roll to Wound
5Take Saving Throws
6Remove Casualties

Before you Check LoS the phase has began ...

**Kitzz**

That's for shooting a weapon, which Lash isn't.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Kitzz wrote:That's for shooting a weapon, which Lash isn't.

Actually that's the "Shooting Phase" so ... yea ...

Not to mention it's used in place of a ranged weapon, which implies "shooting" (yes Im aware it's not a PSA Calm Down)

**Kitzz**

I never said anything about you saying it was a PSA.

Lash is not a shooting attack. It is merely resolved in the Shooting Phase. You technically don't even have to nominate the unit the Lash is in (if it indeed is in a unit) to use it. Therefore, it doesn't follow the rules of shooting. If it did, it probably would be a PSA.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Actually IIRC Lash has a range so you have to Nominate the model it's coming from. Not to mention for possible Psychic hoods, etc Not sure where you got the I don't have to nominate the squad it's coming from.

Besides that considering it is resolved in place of a shooting attack, Doom has already went BOO

**Kitzz**

I meant you didn't have to nominate the squad as if the psyker were shooting, so it doesn't follow the normal shooting procedure.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

It happens after the beginning of the phase (in fact well into the phase)

**Scott-S6**

Kitzz wrote:Where in the rules is the following stated?

"Before a unit may opt to shoot the beginning of the phase has happened."

Shooting happens during the shooting phase. See the opening paragraph of P15.

Something which must happen at the start of the shooting phase must occur before things which happen during the phase.

See rolling for reserves which also happens "at the start" of the phase. Here it is made clear that rolling for reserves (start of phase) happens before regular movement (which happens during the phase).

**BronzeJon**

Lash is used in place of a ranged weapon, hence, you can only use it if you are currently allowed to fire a ranged weapon, i.e in the shooting phase, after applicable start of phase abilities.

**nosferatu1001**

Nothing you have said there is rules, as an aside.

Running is instead of firing, yet models without weapons can still run.

**BronzeJon**

Instead of firing a ranged weapon, the model can cast lash.

When can you fire a ranged weapon?

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

yep, guess that's at some point after the phase began

**puma713**

Kitzz wrote:What if you say, "I want to use Lash at the start of my shooting phase," and then because two rules conflict you use tMIR?

Then you might be looked at as TFG. I've never heard someone actually plan to invoke TMIR.

**Scott-S6**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:yep, guess that's at some point after the phase began

BRB says "during the shooting phase".

During = between the start and end of the phase.

Seems pretty cut and dry.

The best you could try and argue (and it's a massive stretch) is that the first action of the phase is both during and also the start of the phase. Then Lash and Leech would be simultaneous. I do not support this interpretation. No possible way that Lash can happen before Leech.

**-Nazdreg-**

Ehm well...

If that worked, I would kill the damn beast "right at the beginning of the shooting phase" with a bunch of longfang missiles before it can use its power.

The problem is: Lash as well as shooting has a procedure, which will take some amount of time.
So, when you re trying to cast lash, right the moment you start your declaration, the beginning of the shooting phase is over and the automatic action took place.

So even if you manage to pull doom away from its targets, it already used its power, and it has to be resolved.