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So, I recently played a game against a bike army. Said bike army had a bike unit with a librarian attached. At one point I got into a melee combat where my Spyders charged that unit, but could only contact the IC who was sideways in front of the ordinary bikes (who in turn could not pile in due to terrain/vehicles). I know I had to attack the IC, but can his ordinary bikes attack me even though they have no model in base contact with my Spyders due to the IC being a 'separate unit'?

An attempt at a diagram, each vertical pair of oo is a ordinary troop bike while the ___ is the IC and the S are my units. Assume the sides are impassable due to terrain/vehicles/other melee.
ooo
ooo
___
SSS

As a side note, do bikes take dangerous terrain tests if forced to pile in through ruins and wooded areas?

if none of the models in his bike squad were engaged I don't believe his models could have attacked you.

Interesting situation. I guess the bikes would have to crowd in as close as possible, but if they can't get into B2B contact then you can't attack the normal bikes and they can't attack you.

The IC and the squad are separate units during the combat. If none of the squad are in B2B then they don't get to fight. Likewise, if an IC doesn't get into B2B then he doesn't get ot fight.

If the Librarian on the bike is part of the unit, the rest of the unit not engaged in combat must do a "Defenders React Move of up to 6 inches." Each unit that can get into B2B contact must do so.

If the Librarian was seperated from the unit then, no, his Bikes can't participate in the combat,

Conor - they attempted to do that, read the OP. theyre all one squad.

If a member of the normal bike unit is not in BtB with a member of your unit, they cannot fight but also cannot be targetted by your squad

The rest of the bikes could fight.

P.35 under Who can fight states:

"Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight, and will not change until its end..."

only "When the attacks are resolved, however, IC's are always treated as a separate single model unit."

so you find out who is engaged at the start of the fight, find that the bikes have a model in the unit in B2B, so any bikes within 2" of the one (IC on a bike) in B2B can make their attacks against the unit.

DeathReaper wrote:The rest of the bikes could fight.

P.35 under Who can fight states:

"Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight, and will not change until its end..."

only "When the attacks are resolved, however, IC's are always treated as a separate single model unit."

so you find out who is engaged at the start of the fight, find that the bikes have a model in the unit in B2B, so any bikes within 2" of the one (IC on a bike) in B2B can make their attacks against the unit.

IC and Bikes are treated as separate units in CC. The bikes need to have a unit is B2B in order to fight.

What's your argument for your answer?

Nungunz wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The rest of the bikes could fight.

P.35 under Who can fight states:

"Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight, and will not change until its end..."

only "When the attacks are resolved, however, IC's are always treated as a separate single model unit."

so you find out who is engaged at the start of the fight, find that the bikes have a model in the unit in B2B, so any bikes within 2" of the one (IC on a bike) in B2B can make their attacks against the unit.

IC and Bikes are treated as separate units in CC. The bikes need to have a unit is B2B in order to fight.[/u]

What's your argument for your answer?

The underlined above is not always true.

when you determine who is engaged it is all one unit.

The Bikes do have a unit in B2B when you start the combat, IC's are not separate until "the attacks are resolved"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Conor - they attempted to do that, read the OP. theyre all one squad.

If a member of the normal bike unit is not in BtB with a member of your unit, they cannot fight but also cannot be targetted by your squad

QFT - DeathReaper - Good Call.

nosferatu1001 - I read the original post, and He didn't say anything about a defenders react. Given that if the assaulting unit was able to contact the IC attached to the unit, then the IC had to be within 2 inches of another model in the unit to maintain coherancey, therefore the unit should do a defenders react, and no less than 2 of the biker unit would be in B2B if possible, and more given the 2" rule.

If they were able to reach the IC then the unit should have some models in B2B contact, and if for some reason they could not get past the IC, then they would count as being within 2" of an engaged model therefore be able to participate in the combat.

After reading through the rules several times and thinking it out, I'm going to have to agree with both Conner and DeathReaper. Learned something new here today (or had a misconception corrected anyway)


Sorry Nos, going to have to disagree with you for once.

The main reason I posted that up is that, while its how the rules read I have yet to see anyone play it that way.

YMMV of course

By that logic can an IC who is not in base to base contact with the enemy be hit and make hits? Assuming the IC is within 2" of someone who is in B2B.
That sort of makes sense, although its not how i've played it. Means the 'treat IC as a seperate unit' only really makes a difference due to WS.

Alright, so if the IC is block on both sides by impassable terrain

000000000
XXXXICXXXXXXXXX
BBBBBB

If 0 is opposing force
XXX is Impassable Terrain
IC is Libby
BBBBB are bikes

It makes sense that the bikes arent hit, and cannot hit back. Theyre not in BTB only their IC is

DarK_EtheR wrote:By that logic can an IC who is not in base to base contact with the enemy be hit and make hits? Assuming the IC is within 2" of someone who is in B2B.

That would follow, using that interpretation. Which is exactly why that interpretation is pretty clearly incorrect...

While Deathreaper's interpretation does appear to follow the RAW on the surface, it ignores the rules that come immediately after what he quoted. The IC rules state that when attacks are resolved the IC is treated as a separate unit, and then they go on to state that this means that the IC needs to be in base contact to make his attacks...

So while it's not written as clearly as it could be, it's fairly obvious that the 'when attacks are resolved' is supposed to include the part when you are figuring out who can attack.

The problem lies in that whole section Insaniak, they contradict themselves.

That exception for IC's needing to be in B2B may have been intentional, but it may have not been we have no way to know.

We play it as the IC is a part of the unit so if he is the only one in B2B when figuring out who can attack, then anyone within 2" of him can attack as well, but YMMV

DeathReaper wrote:The problem lies in that whole section Insaniak, they contradict themselves.

If you have two possible interpretations, and one of them results in a contradiction, it's generally safer to go with the other...

I read it as an exception specifically denying IC's a chance to attack unless they are in B2B, which is not true of most models in a unit.

nos right, reaper wrong.

don_mondo wrote:nos right, reaper wrong.

Except the rules read exactly as I have laid out.

don_mondo wrote:nos right, reaper wrong.

No...Don wrong / Reaper right.

Ladies and Gentlemen, he is reading the rules EXACTLY as they are stated. I just pulled out the rules to make sure I remember them and they are EXACTLY the way he is stating. I suggest you do the same before chiming in.

Reaper is 100% correct. Models within 2 inches of an engaged model may participate in the combat.

Connor McKane wrote:Reaper is 100% correct. Models within 2 inches of an engaged model may participate in the combat.

Except that "when attacks are resolved" - note attacks, not wounds - "independent characters are always treated as a separate, single-model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41)".

Looking at a specific example, this Librarian biker and his bike squad attack. After all movement is completed pre-assault, only the Librarian is in base to base contact with an enemy model. When attacks are resolved, the Librarian and his bikers are treated as two, separate units. This means that, for that instant, the bikers have no chain connecting them to a valid target. Similarly, the models the Librarian is engaged with, when resolving their attacks, may only attack his 'single-model unit', and not the bikers beyond.

A simple analogue would be this: two infantry blobs meet in assault, one striking at I4, the other striking at I3. The player controlling the I3 squad, for whatever reason, chooses to allocate wounds inflicted at I4 to his front rank rather than rear rank. Some saves are failed, and some front rank models are removed from play. The rear rank models that are no longer within 2 inches of a model in base to base contact with the enemy are now unable to attack at I3. In this case, they would pile in at the conclusion of the combat.

except in the case of an IC ...

Insaniak right

Connor McKane wrote:No...Don wrong / Reaper right.

Ladies and Gentlemen, he is reading the rules EXACTLY as they are stated. I just pulled out the rules to make sure I remember them and they are EXACTLY the way he is stating. I suggest you do the same before chiming in.

Reaper is 100% correct. Models within 2 inches of an engaged model may participate in the combat.

It ultimately hinges on whether you consider 'when attacks are resolved' to include determining who can attack, or just the actual attack rolls.

Since it states that the side of effect of ICs being a separate unit when attacks are resolved is that they have to be in base contact to attack, GW were clearly angling for the former rather than the latter.

Yes, Neither of the ways are 100% correct (Unless you take strict RAW into account, but that is not advised since it leads to some really silly situations)

The two ways to read it are:

#1 The IC rules state he must be in B2B to attack, so you apply this to all models.

#2 The IC rules state he must be in B2B to attack, but this is an exception to the rule and does not apply to all models.

In the end discuss it with your Opponent, or your TO before the game/event.

DeathReaper wrote:#1 The IC rules state he must be in B2B to attack, so you apply this to all models.

That't not actually what I was saying at all.

You don't apply it to all models because it says the IC has to be in base contact. You apply it to all models on the assumption that 'when attacks are resolved' includes determining who attacks whom. That assumption is backed up by the requirement for ICs to be in base contact being stated as a result of them being different units when attacks are resolved.

Either we assume that 'when attacks are resolved' includes determining who can attack, in which case each unit has to be in base contact in order to attack.
OR
We assume that 'when attacks are resolved' refers solely to rolling attacks and applying the results, in which case ICs have to be in base contact to attack but the unit they are joined to does not, and that paragraph detailing how this works makes no actual sense since it includes a conclusion that does not actually have anything to do with the premise that precedes it.

While you're obviously free to play it how you want, when one interpretation fits all of the rules as presented and another leads to silly places, most players will go with the former.