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Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:When the Chaos Gods banded together, the Imperium was brought to its knees.

And again - they lost battle for the matterium. There is no real proof of their power except claims of Chaos worshipers. But that is just me claiming the power of Jesus to Muslim - it's no proof. True, they can do some pretty nasty things, but they are just beings hungry for power, not even true Gods.

That wasn't why they fought. They don't care about the Material universe, 99.9% of their attentions are concentrated on playing the Great Game. There's plenty of proof of their power. Their servants? Boosted purely by Daemonic energy, they're able to lay waste to entire armies. Their scheming nearly killed the Emperor and created the hell hole that is the Imperium today. The birth cries of the weakest nearly obliterated an entire race and created the Eye of Terror. There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.

Void__Dragon wrote:When the C'tan warred, entire star systems disappeared.

That is all part of Eldar legends, and they are known for their lies and betrayal - hard proof for a race with no sense of honor. Aside from legends and rumors that was never proven, and according to rumors from new codex C'Tan are not gods - they are slaves to Necrons.

Which, until it comes around if it even does, is not true so therefore irrelevant. If Mat Ward does screw up the Necrons like so many people seem to believe already, then you can talk about it. Until them, C'tan are stupidly powerful beings capable of draining stars of energy. They boosted the Necrons to the point where they nearly destroyed the Old Ones.
All that aside, what point are you trying to make? That these beings aren't powerful? Or is it yet again another ridiculous fanboy argument about how none of this can be true because it's all legends from untrustworthy aliens? I find the latter to be mildly hypocritical. Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.

Grey Templar wrote:
SoB could also become corrupted.

You do know only 1 of them ever fall to Chaos, just one.
BL novel stuff is ... going against official fluff from time to time.

There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

Which is wrong on their part. It was Daemonic power sourced from an enraged Bloodthirster. Not viral, in the sense of a biological disease, it was Chaos corruption. Unless there's more to it of course.

Miriael Sabathiel fell to the lure of chaos, she 'fell' voluntarily. These Sisters were forcibly corrupted, not into servants or Chaos champions, but displayed effects of the taint, which was to attack in a mindless rage or to explode in a shower of gore.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.

My God beats your God?

Surely those chaos Gods wouldn't fictionally "exist" without a God creating Man to imagine these "Gods".

So NO, we just have to accept what the author makes these chaos "gods" in power and validity in 40k.
The deification of these creatures of the empyrean is questionable as their power is restricted to their own realm, the warp.

Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.
No, not at all, you're either trolling or plain misinterpreting something that's quite plain and simple. I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.

I am bound to post no he don't, am I?

Meh.

iproxtaco wrote:
I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.

No, I think your idea to apply real life is bad.
The pantheon your aiming at has nothing in common with the religion used in your example. So please either use a comparable belief system
or keep real life out of it. Would prefer 40k terms tough, maybe eldar or necron Gods, ork gods, etc.

I'm not applying real life at all, bar a comparison. Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.

Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.
End of discussion.

So the Horus Heresy and the Eye of Terror and the power of their servants are all legends and hearsay? The defeat of the Old Ones too? The War in Heaven? They're all things we know happened as the reader. The Emperor created the Imperium, which is remarkable too, is that hearsay and legend?

iproxtaco wrote:
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."

End of discussion.

Irrelevant to my quote as I'm not denying it happened at all. Nothing is official and everything is official. Games Workshop, you know, that company that controls the setting we're talking about, hasn't said officially that Black Library and other sources that aren't created by the Studio, are not canon. Until then, GW has no canon really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.

The Tau don't know a whole lot about Chaos, if they know anything at all.

The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.

The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.

Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).

Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.

I'm not sure what you mean. Sister's can achieve things through their faith, although it's arguable whether its the Emperor's intervention or not. They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.

Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.
End of discussion.

So the Horus Heresy and the Eye of Terror and the power of their servants are all legends and hearsay? The defeat of the Old Ones too? The War in Heaven? They're all things we know happened as the reader. The Emperor created the Imperium, which is remarkable too, is that hearsay and legend?

iproxtaco wrote:
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."

End of discussion.

Irrelevant to my quote as I'm not denying it happened at all. Nothing is official and everything is official. Games Workshop, you know, that company that controls the setting we're talking about, hasn't said officially that Black Library and other sources that aren't created by the Studio, are not canon. Until then, GW has no canon really.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.

The Tau don't know a whole lot about Chaos, if they know anything at all.

The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.

The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.

Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).

Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.

I'm not sure what you mean. Sister's can achieve things through their faith, although it's arguable whether its the Emperor's intervention or not. They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).

Heresy?

You think its an achievement to start a heresy? There was more than one civil war of the course of 40 millenia.

Now, I see you admit it was the minions of these self proclaimed Gods that did the job and the Gods just watched them die.
Am I right its neccessary to delegate the work to "servants"? If so, any God able to influence both realms without reliance on willing servants or able to enter both realms is more of a "true" God than the chaos "Gods".

I absolutely think its an achievement. It wasn't any old rebellion, it was the Horus Heresy. You know, that thing where half of the Imperium revolted and joined what was thought to be the Emperor's most loyal servant, who then went on to nearly kill the Emperor and turn it into the hell-hole it is currently.
Yes, servants, who happen to be direct manifestations of their will. I mean literally, Daemons are part of Chaos Gods. There's more to it than simply not being able to affect the material realm. They sucked the Primarch's pods through a warp portal after all. It's more to do with the fact that bar a few unique instances, the Horus Heresy being the most obvious, the Chaos Gods don't give a damn about the material realm. They enjoy watching their servants, mortal and Daemonic, wreaking havoc amongst the mortal races, but most of their time is dedicated to playing the Great Game, or the events in the Warp. Tzeentch spends a great deal of time staring into some portal in the Impossible Fortress which I can't remember the name of. He threw Kairos Fateweaver into it.

iproxtaco wrote:They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.

I'd say they wouldn't hold back if they could relief the galaxy of them. And we know "Gods" can die. ( at least, elven ones ).

I'd say the same.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
It's more to do with the fact that bar a few unique instances the Chaos Gods don't give a damn about the material realm. They enjoy watching their servants, mortal and Daemonic, wreaking havoc amongst the mortal races, but most of their time is dedicated to playing the Great Game, or the events in the Warp. Tzeentch spends a great deal of time staring into some portal in the Impossible Fortress which I can't remember the name of.

Not giving a damn could switch off their favourite "tv-show" easily, let the C'tan do their thing and have it discontinued...

Still not sure where you get the ratio of attention spent on the material realm vs the warp from.
Plus, "new" WD fluff grants sisters victories against chaos be it red corsairs or demon.
Just waiting when they realize as per the "new" fluff the number of ordos is raised to 9...

The current Chaos Daemons codex. They're far more concerned with vying for supremacy than they are about the material realm. Even the Horus Heresy deserved but an instant. I'll get my codex out if need be, but until then read the Lexicanum entry, it's sums it up pretty well.

Lexicanum - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Great_Game wrote:The Great Game is the constant struggle for dominance between the Chaos Gods. The Warp is not only home to the Gods, but it is also their battlefield. No god can ever win the Great Game, for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist. So it is an Eternal Conflict. The Full attention of the God is concentrated on the Great Game, a fraction of their attention will very rarely be fixed on the mortal realm but only for an instant as the Great game is more important. The Chaos Gods will also unite rarely roughly every few thousand years, if there is need to do so (to thwart a threat or to take advantage of an occurrence). The rise of the Emperor was such a time, the Warp Gods engineered the wars of the Horus Heresy to bring about his downfall, distracting them for an instant from the Great Game. The Great Conflict which is played out amongst the gods is also mirrored by their followers and worshipers in the material realm. This is what the Daemon-Primarchs and other Great Chaos Champions are occupied with, fighting for the supremacy of their god, with untold power at their fingertips.

Source - Codex: Chaos Daemons

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I read it, and if you don't mind - it's all legends and rumors to me. And as you said:

You don't have good reading comprehension then, or you're lying. I suspect the latter. If did read it though and comprehended it then you're just in denial. Admit you were wrong.

I did read it. And I don't believe Necron fluff. Those are all myth and legends from time that was xxxxxxxxxx eons ago. To me, Necons are bunch of brain dead zombies that we put down the moment they woke up ( well except Damnos and Sanctuary 101 ).

It's knowledge granted to us as the reader. It's not myth and legend re-told by some random Eldar. You're denying it for the sake of the argument basically.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:With means that old fluff from 3'rd edition will not be considered cannon anymore.

*Which

I type fast, I would love to see you trying to type Serbian

It'd probably be the same as you typing in English.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:My deal is that you said "Act's of Faith are not supported by the Emperor". They from who are they comming from then?
It's like saying: "Chaos servants powers don't come from Choas Gods".

In Warhammer 40k it is simple logic - to who you swear your loyalty/soul/whatever... you get powers and influence from it. And in return you serve/pray/kill for it.
Chaos Servants prey/kill for Chaos Gods and they give them their powers. Emperor's servants pray/kill for the Emperor and he gives them his powers ti use in battle ( you said that Emperor is powerful ). Necrons kill/harvest souls for C'Tan and they give them their manifestation to use in battle ( well at least until the next codex ).

SoB don't have psykers, super-natural units etc... They only pray in battle and they got Act's of Faith to use because of it. From who are they coming if not from the Emperor himself?

Funny, I didn't say that. I said "It's not proven." Witch is the same thing.

Unlike the fact that Chaos Cultists are granted powers by the Gods. That is proven, not just belief.

The Emperor's influence itself is not proven. He could just be dead. :3

Funny, since Acts of Faith, whatever their origin, are inherently supernatural. It could easily be a boon from Chaos granted as a joke. :3

I'm not denying that the Emperor could grant then, only saying that it's not definite that he does.

Gawsh, stop being so serious guy.

Stop denying the Emperor's true power brain dead zombie .

It's not the same. He said it hadn't been proven, not that it definitely isn't possible.