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So I was looking up the rules for Grapeshot and apparently you need to roll to hit(I always assumed that it auto-hit and I've never seen it used).

So does grapeshot suffer shooting penalties? It seems kind of dumb that the Ironblaster would need 6s to hit with grapeshot for the most part(Mutli-shot and long range at past 6").

From what I'm reading in the BRB, it seems like there's more evidence that says they would suffer penalties than there is that says they wouldn't.

Yeah, since it follows normal shooting rules (rolling to hit and wound) I assume that it does suffer penalties.

IMO if it did, it would say" roll to hit, using modifiers as normal" as most special artillery do.

A cannon is a cannon, it doesn't miss more because it moved.

just my 2 copper.

It could be basically just a typo under "roll to hit" should be "roll to wound."
Because they would presumably also get penalized for multiple shots and long distance, making them pretty pathetic overall.

Dwarf Organ Gun and Empire Hellblaster work like the above (no to hit). I suspect that's what happens.

Aerethan wrote:IMO if it did, it would say" roll to hit, using modifiers as normal" as most special artillery do.

A cannon is a cannon, it doesn't miss more because it moved.

just my 2 copper.

Well, if it moved it wouldn't fire at all.

The modifiers that stack are for range and for multiple shots. Neither of which make much sense for a bag of metal slugs fired shotgun like out of a cannon.

It seems to be how the rules read at present, but I doubt it was intentional. It also works to make the already mediocre grapeshot just about entirely pointless.

From what I can tell, you still roll to hit suffering all modifiers using the highest BS of the crew. So yeah, kinda really sucks. :/

That sucks. the Ironblaster just got alot worse, especially since its a Move and Fire cannon and has Str10 grapeshot.

I wasn't aware of any war machine/shooting template in WHFB that required a to hit roll. It's been 2-3 editions though since i've used one. I thought current template rules were if anything is touched it is hit. Old rules were hit on 4+ if partially covered right?

Yes, but the suituation here is that you must roll to hit to even place the template at all.

Its probably just a typo.

Well, while Grapeshot instructs you to fire as many shots as you roll on the arty die, it does not actually have the Multiple Shots special rule (only Armour Piercing).

And since it says nothing about a template, it has to be BS shooting, right? Which I guess would make the long range penalty applicable.

Verd_Warr wrote:Well, while Grapeshot instructs you to fire as many shots as you roll on the arty die, it does not actually have the Multiple Shots special rule (only Armour Piercing).

Interesting way of looking at it. Makes sense.

Would the same apply to the Hellblaster volley gun?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ductape wrote:I wasn't aware of any war machine/shooting template in WHFB that required a to hit roll.

The grapeshot option for cannons in this edition does, and the Hellblaster has required a to hit roll since, probably about 3rd edition.

sebster wrote:

Verd_Warr wrote:Well, while Grapeshot instructs you to fire as many shots as you roll on the arty die, it does not actually have the Multiple Shots special rule (only Armour Piercing).

Interesting way of looking at it. Makes sense.

Would the same apply to the Hellblaster volley gun?

The Helblaster doesn't have the Multiple Shots rule either, just similar instructions on how to determine how many shots to fire.

Truth to tell, I never even considered that the multi shots rule would apply to either one until I saw this thread, but neither has the special rule (which is where it specifies a -1 penalty). Long range is just a generic mod to BS shooting though (right?), like cover, move & shoot and stand & shoot.

edited to add

While the last paragraph of the grapeshot rules doesn't specify applying to-hit modifiers like the Helblaster rules do (or bolt throwers for that matter), it doesn't say you can ignore them either. And since it does say roll to hit (=BS shooting) wouldn't you default to the rules for BS shooting (including to-hit modifiers) given in the section starting on pg. 38 of the BRB?

Verd_Warr wrote:The Helblaster doesn't have the Multiple Shots rule either, just similar instructions on how to determine how many shots to fire.

Truth to tell, I never even considered that the multi shots rule would apply to either one until I saw this thread, but neither has the special rule (which is where it specifies a -1 penalty). Long range is just a generic mod to BS shooting though (right?), like cover, move & shoot and stand & shoot.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I just didn't consider that most of the to-hit mods came out of that generic list, but multiple shots came out of the specific rule for multiple shots. Now that you've pointed that out it makes sense that neither would suffer the penalty for multiple shots.

Helblaster didn't roll to hit in 6th. which was over powered.

Verd_Warr wrote:

sebster wrote:

Verd_Warr wrote:Well, while Grapeshot instructs you to fire as many shots as you roll on the arty die, it does not actually have the Multiple Shots special rule (only Armour Piercing).

Interesting way of looking at it. Makes sense.

Would the same apply to the Hellblaster volley gun?

The Helblaster doesn't have the Multiple Shots rule either, just similar instructions on how to determine how many shots to fire.

Truth to tell, I never even considered that the multi shots rule would apply to either one until I saw this thread, but neither has the special rule (which is where it specifies a -1 penalty). Long range is just a generic mod to BS shooting though (right?), like cover, move & shoot and stand & shoot.

edited to add

While the last paragraph of the grapeshot rules doesn't specify applying to-hit modifiers like the Helblaster rules do (or bolt throwers for that matter), it doesn't say you can ignore them either. And since it does say roll to hit (=BS shooting) wouldn't you default to the rules for BS shooting (including to-hit modifiers) given in the section starting on pg. 38 of the BRB?

From my understanding, yes. So pretty much the shiny new toy from the ogres with a special rule for grape shot is pretty much useless at it since it will default straight away to hitting on 5s or 6s of art die number of shots.

Aside, I don't understand why it isn't just straight hits. It averages out to 5 shots and that's really not a whole lot considering you're right in front of a cannon firing several shots at once. They pretty much already built in the miss chance and then they put it in again. It hardly steps on organ gun or hellblaster's toes being 12 inch range and the other guns have special rules to back them up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapeshot

I mean can you imagine missing something that close with that much firepower? But who knows, maybe they'll errata grapeshot into something worth while.

If they take the time to make sure that Helblasters use modifiers it would make sense that they would add this where intended.

I suppose it would come down to the wording" roll to hit as normal". If it says that, then yes use modifiers.

Aerethan wrote:If they take the time to make sure that Helblasters use modifiers it would make sense that they would add this where intended.

I suppose it would come down to the wording" roll to hit as normal". If it says that, then yes use modifiers.

There is no reason to assume it does not have modifiers. There is nothing in the rule which dismisses earlier rules regarding shooting therefore they still abide by them.

Yeah, I'm pretty much in agreement that you suffer penalties for it. That doesn't mean I don't think it's stupid. That's like aiming with a sawed off shotgun instead of just pointing in the general direction.

One more in the "it suffers to hit penalties" camp, as being behind a brick wall or behind a tree will catch some of those rusty nails (if you want a fluff explanation). "Roll to hit as normal" include all penalties associated with "normal" shooting.

I cannot speak for the Ironblaster, grapeshot for cannons is just a last ditch defensive shot before you get charged by scouts, cavalry, monster or whatever. It should be nowhere near as powerful as the Organ gun or Hellblaster, because it still has the primary ability to fire cannonballs.

It doesn't suffer multiple shots though, so you are hitting on 5s, maybe 4s if they are close. Good against weakened monsters and small groups of cavalry that are about to charge, that's about it.

scubasteve04 wrote:I cannot speak for the Ironblaster, grapeshot for cannons is just a last ditch defensive shot before you get charged by scouts, cavalry, monster or whatever. It should be nowhere near as powerful as the Organ gun or Hellblaster, because it still has the primary ability to fire cannonballs.

It doesn't suffer multiple shots though, so you are hitting on 5s, maybe 4s if they are close. Good against weakened monsters and small groups of cavalry that are about to charge, that's about it.

Well, the thing is, it's still not as good as the organ gun or hellblaster if it rolls straight hits, instead of shots. It's shorter range, doesn't get any sort of re-roll or extra shots and if they're that close and not in CC with you or something, they deserve the hit.

Would it ignore the -1 for moving and shooting due to being mounted on a chariot, stable platform and whatnot?

zeekill wrote:Would it ignore the -1 for moving and shooting due to being mounted on a chariot, stable platform and whatnot?

Only if that's a rule for chariots and not the Ironblaster specifically. *goes to dig out rulebook hopefully*

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

zeekill wrote:Would it ignore the -1 for moving and shooting due to being mounted on a chariot, stable platform and whatnot?

Only if that's a rule for chariots and not the Ironblaster specifically. *goes to dig out rulebook hopefully*

I may have been mistaken, I can't find it. Maybe that was last edition.